Chapter 23: Readjustment

“The price of dominion is the halving of one’s grasp, for a ruler may hold a crown or hand but never both.”
– Julienne Merovins, tenth First Princess of Procer

I’d dismounted, eventually, mainly because my leg was starting to twinge again. A chair would be easier on it, though it was a great deal harder for me to glare down at people without a horse under me. My anger had cooled some after the initial remonstration, but it was far from gone – part of me was seething, and though I knew only part of the blame lay with the two women seated across from me they were not exempt from being called to account. Not when, to my knowledge, there was not a single part of this ill-considered western campaign that wasn’t a spectacular disaster in some way.

“For my defeats I offer no excuse,” Marshal Juniper said, tone rough.

This was the most cowed I’d ever seen her act, and with damned good reason. I trusted the supreme commander of my armies, even now. I did trust her judgement less than I would have a year ago, however. The thing was, what she had done – what Hakram and Vivienne had done with her – it couldn’t simply be settled with a calm word and a reminder to be careful. Not when my delaying my return from the Everdark for as little as a month might have seen the Army of Callow either slaughtered or ended as a fighting force. The Third lost, as it likely would have been without my intervention, meant the Fourth was alone and blind to the east. Add onto this that they’d been getting hammered by the mere vanguard of the Grand Alliance host before I arrived today? The decisions taken by my foremost commander had nearly led to the end of the armies she was commanding. For the political aspects of this howling mess I would not hold her to account, but the military ones? They were very much her purview.

“I’m not interested in your falling on your sword, Marshal,” I flatly said. “I’ve already spoken with Adjutant, so I have an understanding of the deployments made and the reasons for them. Splitting the columns was risky, but tactically sound. Before that, gating in between the Dominion forces was an equally sound manoeuvre. If, once more, risky.”

My voice hardened at the last word, and though she did not flinch she did stiffen. In all our years together, I’d never once before chewed out the Hellhound like this. We’d had disagreements, the most animated of them over Bonfire and later the conduct of the campaign in northern Callow, but they’d been only that. Disagreements. For the most part I’d allowed her the run of the Fifteenth and later the Army of Callow, usually only intervening for reasons that weren’t strictly military in nature. For all the oaths and the fact that I wore the crown, our relationship had been as close to one of equals as circumstances allowed. Right now, though? This was not Catherine talking to Juniper. This was the Black Queen speaking to the Marshal of Callow, and I reasons to be furious.

“A defeat, or several, is not something that needs excusing,” I said. “To expect a flawless record would be absurd, especially given the calibre of our opposition. But I am currently looking at a series of tactically solid steps that led towards the greatest strategic disaster of our tenure together, and that needs an explanation.”

I tapped my fingers against the table.

“Why is the Army of Callow fighting in Iserre, Marshal?” I asked.

“Your Majesty-”

Vivienne’s interruption once again had my temper flaring. I glanced at her, still finding the sight of her milkmaid’s braid surprising, and arched an eyebrow. The visible disconnect between the woman I’d left behind and the one I was looking at made it easier to rein in my irritation, though only by so much.

“Do you speak for Marshal Juniper now, Vivienne?” I calmly asked.

Her lips thinned.

“This campaign was not decided by her alone,” she said. “I also bear a responsibility.”

“You are not Marshal of Callow,” I said, calling on my thinning reserves of patience. “A graduate of the War College, a trained strategist or indeed a military officer at all. For the diplomatic aspects of this debacle, the main responsibility lies with you and Hakram. I am well aware of that. This is not the diplomatic aspect.”

My eyes flicked back to Juniper.

“Well?” I said. “Should Vivienne be a part of this conversation, Marshal?”

“No, Warlord,” Juniper replied, chin rising. “She should not.”

I dipped my head in approval. At the very least she was owning the fuckup instead of trying to spread around the responsibility, though whether that was out of persisting dislike for Vivienne or a personal sense of honour I couldn’t be sure. My silence was taken as the invitation to speak that it was.

“It was necessary to evacuate the Legions of Terror,” Juniper said.

I nodded in acknowledgement.

“They fought at the Vales,” I said. “A debt was owed. How did this translate to your finding sense in deploying forty thousand legionaries through magical means of ingress and egress in the single most Name-infested region of this continent?”

“I did not believe any force below twenty thousand would prove a sufficient deterrent,” the orc said. “I can’t speak to the politics involved, but the size of the force was meant to ensure no battle would actually take place even if heroes spurred armies to move in time.”

“Then why forty and not twenty?” I said, frowning.

“Because there was no telling when you would return,” Juniper admitted. “And that meant if the northern Principate broke, we might have to occupy the Principality of Arans to prevent the Dead King from holding one side of the northern passage into Callow.”

The Stairway, I thought. Which should currently be defended by the army of Duchess Kegan, but only from the Callowan end of the pass. Considering the Principality of Hainaut was all that stood between the armies of the dead and Arans, her worry wasn’t unfounded.

“Adjutant didn’t mention this,” I said.

“The situation was still theoretical,” the Hellhound said. “We’d have a gap of at least two months between leaving Callow by Arcadia and arriving in Iserre, possibly more, which effectively killed our capacity to occupy Arans in time if the front in Hainaut broke. Committing twenty thousand soldiers – two divisions – and the Wild Hunt was splitting the forces in a manner that made it impossible to exert our strength correctly.”

I breathed out, forced myself to consider the logic in what she was saying.

“Even if you sent the two remaining divisions north before leaving, they’d arrive late and be dependent on Duchess Kegan’s army to manage occupation of Arans,” I finally said. “Which, without me at the helm, she might not be inclined to give. On the other hand, having the full four divisions with the Hunt meant if the strike proved necessary you could march in force immediately and entrust the Deoraithe with the supply line from the other side.”

“That was my reasoning,” Juniper agreed.

“And Adjutant was not informed of your theory because?”

“Because he had nothing to contribute to the planning,” the Hellhound bluntly said. “And I wanted the plans ready for implementation if things went to shit after he and the Lady-Regent tried to make a truce with Procer.”

I let a few heartbeats pass to see if she had anything to add, but she did not.

“General Hune,” I said without turning. “Anything to add?”

“Two months before our departure for Iserre, the general staffs for all four divisions were assigned a tactical exercise called Citadel,” the ogre evenly said. “While no direct mention of Procer or Arans was made, it involved rapidly occupying a foreign territory with limited forces. Priority was placed on fortifying it against an outside assault even while occupation took place.”

Essentially confirming Juniper hadn’t woven this entire Arans thing out of thin air, though I’d not been all that inclined to believe that in the first place.

“Noted,” I said.

I drummed my fingers against the tabletop, resisting the urge to hum. This was still a massive fuckup, I thought, but at least Juniper had actual reasons for having brought the Army of Callow this far out. Were they sufficient, in my eyes? I wasn’t sure, to be honest, and I shouldn’t be passing judgement on that until I had all the information at my disposal instead of a simple debrief. The Hellhound’s actions as still almost ended the Kingdom of Callow as a military power for at least a decade, and she’d proved to be imprudent repeatedly. On the other hand, every risk she’d taken was at least calculated and overall dictated by what could only be called a desperate fucking times.

“Marshal Juniper, in your own opinion where exactly was the blunder made?” I finally asked.

“When I ordered the army to gate in between the two Dominion forces,” she replied without missing a beat. “To be sound, that manoeuvre depended on certain access to gates when leaving. It was a blunder to assume that would be the case.”

She wasn’t changing her stance as to the necessity of fielding the four divisions of the army, I noted, which meant the Hellhound still believed it’d been the right call given what she’d known at the time. On the other hand, she wasn’t trying to excuse herself by saying it would have been impossible to anticipate the gates would start going wild when they did, or that scrying would be made impossible by something still unknown.

“And do you believe Adjutant the Lady-Regent interfered with how you would have planned this campaign otherwise?” I asked.

She mulled over that, for a moment.

“No more than you would have, Warlord,” Juniper said.

Fair enough, I thought.

“You’re not stripped from command,” I finally sighed. “As of now, General Hune is confirmed as the senior among the generals in the Army of Callow.”

A warning, essentially, that if she blundered this badly again then the ogre would be handed the marshal’s baton.

“When the situation in Iserre is resolved,” I continued, “a tribunal of senior officers will be convened to assess whether or not the decisions you took in this campaign warrant charges of incompetence or reckless use of authority. Their verdict will decide whether or not you are demoted back to general.”

“Understood,” the Marshal of Callow rasped.

“Good,” I said. “I’ll be perfectly clear: I have no intention of being involved with this tribunal beyond ordering it convened. This is not personal, Juniper. This isn’t happening because I am angry with an old friend, or appalled by what your decisions almost led to. But if the Army of Callow is ever to be more than just my personal warband, then its members need to be accountable for what they do.”

She nodded, but her face was unreadable. I did not know whether or not she believed me.

“None of this can hold until it’s been confirmed you’re actually Catherine Foundling,” Vivienne said, face resolutely set.

She hadn’t reached for a knife, and idly I wondered if she still carried any. Probably. Losing her Name did not mean she’d lost her skills, simply that there wasn’t quite as much weight behind them.

“Yes,” I said, smile turning hard. “Let’s talk about that.”

My fingers clenched.

“What the Hells were the two of you thinking?” I hissed out. “A pair of lines, fifteen mages? All of this led by General Hune, who is well-known to be aloof from me? Did you even pause to consider what it looked like?”

I glanced at the ogre in question, inclining my head to convey no offence was meant. She replied with the same, visibly unaffected. It was, after all, nothing but the truth.

“Precautions had to be taken,” Vivienne said, though she winced. “You’ve agreed on those in the past, Your Majesty.”

“If I’d actually been a puppet what would have happened?” I harshly asked her. “I would have splattered them across the ground, accused the two of you a fomenting a coup and I’d have your head on pikes within the hour. What could fifteen legion mages have done, Vivienne? Unless you’ve recruited practitioners capable of High Arcana in the last year, little more than scream before they died.”

“They were chosen for their capacity to check on your identity,” Juniper said. “A ritual-”

“Could have been done in private, away from the eyes of the troops,” I spoke through gritted teeth. “If I was willing to cooperate – and I will be, once this fucking conversation is over – then there was no need to play out what looked like an arrest. If I wasn’t, if I was an impostor or a puppet, exactly what difference would forty soldiers have made?”

There was a long moment of silence in the tent.

“I was aware you had no head or liking for politics when I named you Marshal, Juniper,” I said. “This, though? You should have grasped this without need for explanation. What would have happened, even if I’d been taken away without fighting and not reappeared? How many legionaries would have believed I was an impostor, after seeing me turn away the Proceran horse?”

I paused, forcing myself to breathe out and calm.

“We’re not eighteen anymore,” I said. “There’s no one to clean up our mistakes for us. You’re the highest ranked military officer in the kingdom, when you don’t consider the ramifications of your orders there are consequences.”

I turned to the other reckless gambler, almost at a loss for words.

“As for you, Vivienne, do I even need to say anything?” I tiredly said.

She looked away. That was answer enough.

“Marshal Juniper, General Hune,” I sighed. “You may resume your duties. Within the hour the hills to the west will be occupied by the Third Army, while the Fourth and fifty thousand drow auxiliaries move to the northwest to pressure the Grand Alliance’s army.”

Assuming Hakram had understood me correctly, whoever held command of the enemy army was going to have a hard choice to make. Either they’d allow an enemy force with numerical superiority and two entrenched positions – this camp and the hills General Abigail was marching on – to begin encircling them before the battle continued, or they’d have to withdraw further north and surrender any advantage they’d gained today. My bet was on the enemy retreating, given that they had reinforcements following behind us, but if Princess Rozala and the Dominion commander wanted to get into a slugging match even after my warning then the Army of Callow and the Legions needed to be readied for the fight. Juniper nodded, and rose to offer a salute. Hune settled for a nod, which given the respective sizes of herself and the pavilion was probably for the best.

“Marshal?” I called out as she began heading out.

“Ma’am?” Juniper gravelled.

“Have the appropriate mages prepare the ritual,” I said. “Discretely. Leave an officer outside this tent to guide me there when I’ve finished.”

“Understood,” the Marshal of Callow said, and left without another word.

I wondered, with a pang, if what had been said here today had just ended one of the last few friendships I had. If a relationship it’d taken years to build had just been put to the torch and we would be returning to the distant formality of the first months of the Fifteenth. Perhaps not, I thought. Orcs tended to handle reprimands like these better than humans, and she’d not named me her warlord lightly. But something would change, I knew, and it might not ever entirely return to the way it used to be. And Juniper, of the two I had chewed out, was likely to take this the best. Akua’s words about the conflict between the needs of the queen and the woman lingered at the edge of my thoughts, but they were too bitter for me to be willing to acknowledge them.

“I suppose now is to be my turn,” Vivienne Dartwick said. “Was it a kindness or a bad omen, that you dismissed the others first?”

I finally allowed myself a good look at her. What had once been short dark hair was now elaborately put together in a milkmaid braid that circle twice atop her bangs, reminiscent of a summer fair crown. The blue-grey eyes had not changed, I thought, but something about the cast of her face had. She seemed… older. Like she had grown in the year I’d seen her. The old leathers had been traded in for a long-sleeved pale blouse, conservative in cut but still baring most of her shoulders. It led into high-waist wine red skirts, though beneath I’d earlier glimpsed more practical leggings and boots. An engraved silver ring on her hand was the only visible adornment she’d bothered with, save for the royal seal of Callow I’d earlier ordered her to set down. Vivienne hadn’t grown any more beautiful, since we’d last seen each other – she was still barely taller than I, and of rather similar frame. But there was something subtly matured about the way she carried herself. My eyes flicked to the seal still on the table, and for a moment I regretted ordering her to put her down. Her regency had come to an end the moment I’d returned, truth be told, but the manner of making that clear need not be so humiliating. On the other hand, Vivienne, I thought, what choice did you give me?

“I didn’t want it to be like this,” I said. “But here we are. I have questions.”

“Duchess Kegan is now Governess-General,” she said. “And was granted broad if temporary authority in my absence, though I kept the regency title proper until today.”

“Adjutant already told me,” I said. “Kegan was the best of the choices you had. Baroness Ainsley being Keeper of the Seals stacks the council towards nobles too much for my tastes, but I’ll concede there wasn’t anyone else with both the pull and the competence.”

“The recognition of the Confederation of the Grey Eyries-”

“Was within your authority as Lady-Regent, and something I can stomach,” I calmly said. “The Matrons are vicious monsters, but also a thorn in Malicia’s side and willing to sell us goods we badly need. The scheme to make a king of Grem One-Eye was overly ambitious, to my eye, but not offensively so. Arranging for him to hold the Blessed Isle with Black’s own legions was inspired, and I wholeheartedly approve.”

“This is not,” Vivienne murmured, “the way I expected this conversation to go.”

“I’m not going to ignore the significant achievements to your name because you angered me,” I mildly replied. “You did very well with the regency. Until, at least, you decided to allow this atrocious blunder of a campaign. Then you deepened the mistake by accompanying the army personally. So I suppose my questions is this – what, exactly, did you think this mess was going to accomplish?”

She smiled, at tad bitterly.

“And my answer determines whether I remain one of the Woe,” she said.

“Don’t give me that,” I sharply said. “Whimpering in self-pity is beneath the both of us. You were given power and authority, Vivienne. I’m asking you to explain your how you used them, not throwing a tantrum. Given the messes I’ve had to clean up, this is an exceedingly measured response.”

“You didn’t deny it,” she said.

“You think fucking up means you’re not one of us?” I said.

“Doesn’t it?” Vivienne replied, eyes unreadable.

“The lot of you didn’t cut my throat after the Doom of Liesse,” I said. “Why would you think this is any different? We can lose, Vivienne. But we have to learn. We have to own it. And we have to face the fucking consequences, because otherwise we’ll just keep doing it. And it’s more important than my feelings, or yours, but it doesn’t mean they aren’t there.”

In the lucid, terrifying moment that followed those words I realized this might be how it’d started for Black. Looking at a mess and knowing that loving those responsible was one thing but exempting them from consequence another. Is that how you learned? To put it in a box and only let it out when the necessary callousness was over with.

“So tell me,” I said, repeating myself with the sudden taste of ash in my mouth. “What did you think this was going to accomplish?”

She talked, I listened, and with careful patient cruelty I hardened her to avoid making the same mistakes twice. We walked to the ritual together, afterwards, and some part of me was almost disgusted at the glints of gratitude and respect I caught in her gaze when she looked at me. Like I’d not, as lovingly as callously, burned her with shame and bound her with affection so that Vivienne Dartwick would be one step closer to the woman I needed her to be.

I was, in the end, my father’s daughter.

140 thoughts on “Chapter 23: Readjustment

      1. aran

        (Update: Never mind, it seems I was already in the Discord. Or at least *a* Discord, can’t tell if it is the same as the one linked here.)

        Like

    1. Vivid

      I really hope that at some point we get to see a meta reference to that one kind of Villian who’s super op and terrifying to fight, but then inexplicably get way weaker when they turn to the good side.

      Liked by 4 people

    1. stevenneiman

      I dunno. All that’s really established is that Cat still has use for Viv. I wouldn’t be surprised if that use includes her being the heir to the throne, but I wouldn’t discount it.

      Liked by 4 people

        1. Andrew Mitchell

          Yes, I agree. EE has __got__ to know that we’d be disappointed to miss out on that conversation. And I don’t think he’d be disappointing without a good reason.

          Liked by 7 people

        1. Pretty sure that Heiress is a Praesi-specific Name. And that it’s also specifically a Villain Name, not a shade of grey Name.

          Callow had its own names for the Crown Prince/Princess Role, but they were all relatively straightforward Hero names.

          I don’t think that there’s a shade of gray Transitional Name specific to the Role in question. Certainly there isn’t going to be a Callowan one. The only place that might have one, but then it’d be a culturally specific Name, might be Helike, since they seem to wobble back and forth a little, based on the fact that Kairos’s nephew was a Hero.

          Liked by 5 people

          1. About the Name Heiress/Heir, as far as I can recall it was never stated directly in text that it was a transitional name to Empress/Emperor. We do know that in the past one of the most successful Names to transition to Empress/Emperor is Chancellor. It was so much so that Malicia outlawed the bestowal of that Name and not to recently she noted that someone might be transitioning into that Role anyway and sent her to a dead end post. Then we also know that the Black Knight is a possible path to Empress/Emperor when Cat had those visions of herself climbing the Tower. Also Akua being Heiress could mean the Heiress to her mother’s title in Woloff.

            Another point to consider is the ramifications of Hakram’s Name, it is a Name that is completely new or it is one so old that it was completely forgotten but it is back now. So the question of why a new Name needs to be answered especially if Viv gets a new Name that has never been seen in Callow before.

            Liked by 2 people

            1. Shikkarasu

              Further point on the Name Heir(ess), Akua mentioned that the Heiress can inherit *anything*. I think this means that if the Heiress survives long enough to reansition she becomes a more powerful version of her new name. Like how White/Black Knights are strengthened by having been the Squire for a time, or how Warlock/Heirophant are boosted by their time as apprentice.

              The most common goal would be Chancellor/Dread Empress because all Praesi nobility strive to either take the Tower or set up their descendants for it, but that’s only because Praesi don’t settle for 2nd fiddle. There’s nothing to say that an Evil Heir/ess could not aim to inherit the Name “King/Queen of Callow”, it would just be a long difficult game of public perception; exactly what the Name Heir(ess) was made for.

              Liked by 2 people

              1. There is an Interlude in Book 3 where Akua talks about the problems the Truebloods are facing and in it she makes a statement that can be argued is what her having the Heiress Name was about: The Heir to old style villainy

                “My mother,” Akua said, “would have me be the swan song of Praesi villainy. The last stand, raging against the dying of the night. But our parents succeeded, Fasili. They made us better than them. We can learn.”

                Villainous Interlude: Chiaroscuro

                That took place just before she became Diabolist

                Liked by 2 people

  1. Skaddix

    I assume Viv doesn’t feel like one of the gang still..she started as a Hero, she switched side. But all the other Woe even Juniper who is probably closest to the Woe (Pre Akua) is exceptional at something. Viv though is the normal former Hero who has never been exceptional and now she is not even Named the one special thing she had. So I figure an inferiority complex drove her here. Also losing Name means with Juniper and Hakram gone. She is any easy assassination target. Since as Cat notes standard Legion Mages are irrelevant outside of Rituals and firing lines. I do wonder when the Tyrant tried to off Juniper if it happened still in Callow that would motivation to come along. Fear.

    Liked by 8 people

      1. Andrew Mitchell

        I think one of the main reasons she lost her name was her fears and insecurities. I’m sad to see that the combination of Hakram’s sacrifice and the loss of her name hasn’t improved her mental health. I was hoping for more character development.

        Liked by 3 people

        1. KageLupus

          Viv lost her Name because she stopped being the Thief. That might sound like circular reasoning but think about how Names work. You have to embody a concept or role fully enough that you slip into one of the grooves of creation.When she first got the Name, Thief was running around stealing from the rich just to make a point. She wasn’t playing Robbin Hood and helping the downtrodden. She was just stealing from nobles because she was so disillusioned with them. In short, she was being a Thief.

          Then look at what happened after she joined up with the Woe and Catherine got her crown. Vivienne spent most of her time acting as a spymistress, the sole voice of reason when discussing plans, and eventually picked up a regency. All of her time has been spent on politics in one sense or another. She was no longer doing the kinds of things that you would expect from a Thief, so she ended up outside of that groove.

          Vivienne didn’t lose her Name because she was afraid and insecure, she felt that way because she had stopped doing the things that made her Thief to begin with.

          Liked by 9 people

          1. Andrew Mitchell

            Yes, you’re absolutely right when you say “You have to embody a concept or role fully enough that you slip into one of the grooves of creation.” But saying that “she had stopped doing the things that made her Thief to begin with” is only half the story IMO.

            As you said, we’re talking about “embodying” a role and that’s as much about mindset as what you do. Thief was confident, she could get away with stealing anything. She lost her confidence, became fearful and stopped Thieving. Both the mindset and actions were important factors, which is why I said “one of the main reasons” in my post above.

            Liked by 2 people

  2. Steve

    It’s admittedly a delicate balance, but Cat comes off like a piece of shit moreso than not, here.

    So easy to be the one looking back with 20-20 vision when you disappear for the greater span of month(s).

    Especially after how bad she fucked up the drow campaign and literally got bailed out by a deus ex machina.

    Liked by 8 people

    1. magesbe

      Her making mistakes in no way excuses others from doing so. It only pushes her to point them out more so they can learn from those mistakes. Even in this chapter, when Vivienne expressed doubt over her continued welcome in the Woe, Cat all but admitted that any mistake Vivienne made here paled in comparison to the magnitude of the Doom of Liesse.

      I felt like this chapter did a very good job separating the “mistake in hindsight” mistakes from “that was just a bad decision” mistakes. Juniper got off mostly because the only mistake she made that really fell into the latter category was the porting between armies mistake, and even then Cat knows that there were arguments for it.

      When repeated disasters hit an army that could have been avoided, someone needs to be held accountable, even if it’s just stopping and having a tribunal that answers the question, “was it really her fault or not.”

      Liked by 19 people

      1. Steve

        ‘It only pushes her to point them out more so they can learn from those mistakes.’

        Eh….this line seems to not indicate that, at least to me.

        “And we have to face the fucking consequences, because otherwise we’ll just keep doing it.”

        Cat literally had a variant of this conversation near the end of the drow campaign with Archer…and then she went on doing the exact same half-cocked thing with next-to-no plan and ended up losing, only to win on a gamble with ‘fate’.

        Her dressing down Juniper for the maneuvers is warranted – but the way in which the dressing down is portrayed makes it feel more like a visceral/personal rationale behind it, with the ‘excuse’ of being made about the failure, rather than the other way around.

        The bigger problem, perhaps, is that Cat has shown many a time that she’s a fuckup, but she’s not really been (at least that I can recall) really been ‘lambasted’ for it, in a way that she does to Juniper and Vivienne here. She’s been hard on herself, sure, but Black dressing her down (in the few times it happened) didn’t echo this, to me.

        And maybe that’s the point (in showing Cat’s fall down the slippery slope), but it isn’t doing Cat any favors as a protagonist.

        Liked by 5 people

        1. magesbe

          Well, firstly, who’s going to dress her down like this? Cat doesn’t answer to anyone anymore, and when she did (mostly to Black), he did dress her down a couple of times.

          The Woe’s way to trying to get through to Cat that she’s made some bad decisions isn’t to dress her down, but to try and talk to her about it. Sometimes that even works. But they’re not in a position to do to her what she did to them here.

          Also, Catherine has fucked up in the past (and paid for it, usually), but I wouldn’t call her a “fuck-up.” Or are you going to ignore the many many successes she’s had? Even if she tends to ignore them herself.

          She’s not telling Viv here that she’s a fuckup, in fact she explicitly said otherwise. She’s saying that Viv fucked up, this is how, and this is what she should do next time.

          But if Cat could go back in time and talk to her past self, you bet she’d rant at her younger self. The person hardest on Cat is Cat herself. Almost to an irritating degree to be honest, though it looks like most of the angst is past.

          Liked by 12 people

        2. Skaddx

          Yeah Cat is being a bit of hypocrite. I mean Juniper made a plan that works perfectly. She is not the Magic expert or the Intelligence expert so how could she possibly predict someone can shutdown scrying over a province and shunt all the Gates to layers of Hell? Granted with Masego and Akua gone there are no magic scholars on the Callow payroll so once the trap shuts she is screwed. We have seen personal anti scrying protection. And intelligence gathering is Viv and Hakram’s Job.

          Still on Cat at least Juniper had plans. Cat’s plan to get the Drow was nothing when she went then defeat Sve Noc in direct combat…Sve has what millennium of experience with magic and Cat didn’t know anything about magic at the time. then her plan was flip one sister against the other right they are going to sell each other out over some random they just met and can kill. Even Cat’s army saving move only works if there is no Hero leading the charge who can look across and say hey she is not Named and not a Fae anymore keep going lads. When is the last time Cat actually used a plan? Cat uses Chaos Plan but she just goes full chaos and hopes she ends up on top by improvising. Meanwhile Tyrant mixes actual Chaos, First Move always works amongst other Story expertise and actual strategic/tactical planing with political manipulation. Cat is basically a much worse Tyrant.

          Liked by 4 people

          1. magesbe

            Juniper could have predicted that there was a non-zero chance that the largest group of collected Named for decades would be able to fuck with a trick that was reliable yes, but also absolutely critical for not being completely fucked. Juniper well all-or-nothing in a plan that involved numerous individuals that specialize in screwing over foolproof plans.

            You seem very fond of leaving context out of Cat’s “plans.” Cat couldn’t plan going to the Drow because no one knew anything about them; they even had more intel on the Dead King. That’s why they were literally the last resort. Then she needed to take Sve Noc out. I mean, yeah she doesn’t know what Sve Noc would do, but her entire Drow force would mutiny if they learned her true intentions, and even if they didn’t they don’t know Sve Noc’s capabilities either. She had very few options at that point, so all she could do was hopefully stack the deck in her favor as much as possible.

            Turning the sisters against each other? First of all, her options at that point were “try something that probably won’t work and probably die, or roll over and DEFINITELY die.” Guess what she tried? Secondly, she was operating under the assumption that the sister’s weren’t a perfectly united front. If you go back to that section, she mentions that she believed that one of the sister’s was publicly Sve Noc, and the other was in a constant state of agony as a “horse” of sorts. Plus, one of the sisters welcomed her to the Everdark, the other cursed at her. She hoped more than figured that enough time spent in this condition would render the “horse” sister amendable to actual negotiation. She was wrong, but honestly her attempts led to what actually worked and thus were infinitely better than getting squashed like a bug.

            She used plans at the Battle of the Camps. She used a plan to save the 3rd army. She didn’t exactly use a plan at the Dead King’s place, but to be fair, they figured out that if you actually had a plan it would fail. If Cat has information and time to plan, she totally uses plans. Admittedly usually she has Juniper write them up, but I’m guessing that if Cat had been with them she wouldn’t have let them do this, because of the reasons discussed in this very chapter.

            And when she saw 7000 horseman charging at the flank of her army, what was she going to do? “Oh, opposing them would be too risky, I should look for a safer option.” At that point there were no safer options. It was take the chance that she would be able to stalemate them because of her reputation for destruction, or watch them destroy her army. Cat’s biggest gambles are done when she has no other feasible options. In that light, even a plan with laughable odds is better than rolling over and dying, or letting massive amounts of your followers die.

            Liked by 7 people

              1. magesbe

                Actually we know all the context of Juniper’s plan, between this chapter and the one where Hakram told her about why they were there. It even mostly excuses Juniper, which is why she got off with a slap on the wrist.

                Liked by 5 people

            1. Skaddix

              No one knows why scrying is down or Gates are being shunted. So yes I agree since personal scrying protection exist Juniper should be able to predict one could should it down over a wider area. Gates, I mean I guess Weseka has shown something similar Weseka’s Ability aren’t public knowledge that Juniper would know she needed to plan. Also we still don’t know who is causing the issues its not the Heroes though or at least it doesn’t seem likely the Heroes are doing it based on who we know is in the Province. So Hierarch and Tyrant are good picks but again Juniper’s Job is not Intelligence Gathering that is Viv’s Job. So if Juniper fails cause she didn’t know what those two can do well that is on Viv and Hakram to a lesser extent since he is suppose to bridge the gap. Or you could say its cause Callow only has three people with extensive knowledge on Named and Magic. Cat took two of them into the Underdark in Akua and Indrani. While Masego went to his father. So Juniper didn’t even have a magic expert and/or a High Arcana level Spellcaster.

              My issue is you seem to give Cat a free pass for gambling and lack of knowledge but don’t apply that to Juniper. Cat’s recent exploits only work cause no one on the other sides know what her abilities are right now. In the first case the young lord didn’t believe the Fae Stories. In the second case she is going up against people who do believe the Fae stories. Cat is not getting out situations cause she Planned anything, she is doing it cause unlike Juniper she can rely on a massive amount of personal power when things go wrong.

              Liked by 3 people

              1. magesbe

                Catherine’s hardly the pinnacle of planning and forethought, I wasn’t trying to say she was. I’m saying that when she does fly by the seat of her pants, it’s usually not because she decided to just randomly fuck planning and do whatever she feels like at the time, like some reviewers seem to be implying. Catherine chews herself out for the mistakes she makes, so I hardly feel the need to do so here; there’s any number of chapters featuring her berating herself. Also, having a lot of personal power doesn’t mean that knowing how to leverage it somehow makes it cheating or something. It means she knows her reputation and what she can do, and uses that as yet another tool. It’s a part of her planning process.

                Liked by 4 people

            2. medailyfun

              Her plan to visit Dead King was insane from the beginning, and she continued with Everdark in even more desparate way. Why not try with Dwarves first? Talk with Tyrant directly? Reconcile with Malicia? Aren’t those more obvious actors? And even without those parties Callow’s situation was not that bad, so for me her actions look like driven by the extreme depression and tunnel vision.
              As for her recent stand with the horsemen, why she have not prepared any backup variant? She still have her Night power, even if it would leave her exhausted it’s better than leaving her dead. All and all, Cat still suffers from taking insane risks and having tunnel vision in situations where it could be avoided.

              Liked by 1 person

              1. magesbe

                Every one of your questions was answered in the text directly or heavily implied by circumstances, so there’s no point in posting rebuttals here. If you don’t think those answers are satisfactory, that’s on you, because it seems to me most people do.

                The question about the recent stand with horseman; surprise gates are a bad idea. She had to go through a literal battleground to reach her destination and it’s only because she had a flying horse she could pull it off. When literally every second counts (as it really did), you don’t have half an hour to organize a large force, plot a safeish route through Arcadia, bring them through there, and then organize them on the other side. If you have a rebuttal for all these points, tell me.

                When going through the Gate she knew they needed help, possibly immediately, and didn’t know that her only option would be to run a massive, dangerous bluff. Though she may have been able to escape, seeing as she only commented that she couldn’t kill them all.

                If she had stopped to gather forces together, it would have been too late.

                Liked by 5 people

                1. medailyfun

                  Of course, there are narrative reasons known only to the author and it’s his story, not mine, but I wanted to outline rational variants.

                  As for the the proceran horse issue, I definitely was not thinking about the gate, actually the author’s decision to use a gate to transport Cat to the battlefield puzzled me, since it is common agreement among the readers that gate travel is too unpredictable in duration that’s why used sparingly.

                  Like

                  1. magesbe

                    If you didn’t mean gating through allies, then I have no idea how you’d expect her to be able to bring in any backup. Also, what Andrew said.

                    I didn’t mean there were hidden reasons for your suggestions being bad ones, I mean there are literally reasons in text. However, I do not care enough to go track down quotes personally so I’ll drop it; however, you’ll find a few around chapter 23 of book 4, though some are earlier and some are later.

                    Liked by 1 person

                    1. medailyfun

                      I was thinking in terms of what bare minimum magic stuff Cat can make to affect the cavalry in addition to standing on their way (cause we do need this stand for the nice narrative :)) And I think big plain curtain of night behind her back without any additional effects besides just being black would be more than enough to support her point.

                      Like

                2. Actually, I’m pretty sure if she hadn’t had a flying horse, she would have gotten a gate on the ground — probably not inside that fortress, but uncomfortably close. When she makes a gate, her exit point is set at the moment she creates the entrance to Arcadia, and every time so far it has been accessible to the party coming through.

                  That said, the reappearance of Fae forces and strongholds in her path is probably not a good sign. That could be the switch from Winter to Night, but it could also be that the Winter/Summer court is giving way to the two remaining courts.

                  Liked by 1 person

          2. On the field of war (or politics, or any other blood-stakes arena), “no one could have predicted that” does not pass muster. The unpredictable is a basic part of war, and both Murphy’s and Finagle’s laws become forces of nature on a battlefield.

            The business of war planning is exactly to account for not only the resources and tactics you know the opponent has, but also for the unexpected stuff they might pull out of a hat — and for other unexpected developments, that might spoil the plans of either side or both. That is where Juniper and Vivienne ultimately failed — not failing to think ahead, but failing to consider “what happens if our carefully worked-out plan does, somehow, go sour?” And so they put everything they had on their plan, forgetting that, famously, “no plan survives contact with the enemy”.

            Liked by 9 people

          3. quite possibly a cat

            Cat has been fucking up to an ever increasing degree ever since she became a full on Fae. Relying on the fae gates was always going to blow up in their faces eventually. It culminated in the Underdark were she decided to take on Sve Noc with a comically simple plan made of villain tropes that always backfire.

            Why do you think Cat near instantly decided she never wanted to be a Winter Fae ever again as soon as she got her mortality back?

            Liked by 2 people

    2. I strongly disagree. This is how things work when you’re playing in the big leagues, with lives and more hanging in the balance. Cat chewed out her subordinates thoroughly, but also listened to them, and did not punish them arbitrarily. I note that the meeting covered the topics we discussed in the last chapter’s comments, including: 1) The point of several apparently-good tactics leading nearly to ruin, specifically because of the failure of return gates — and it was counting on those return gates that was the fatal military mistake. and 2) the gross inappropriateness of the “arrest party”, for all the reasons we noted and one we hadn’t.

      Liked by 16 people

  3. magesbe

    This was brilliant, and almost tailored as a response to those with, admittedly, understandable doubts about Cat’s actions last chapter (though I know better than to believe the chapter was a DIRECT response). Cat knows what she’s doing.

    And every time I hear her call Black Father I can’t help but smile. I think Black will be rescued, with the Bard’s latest play with him I don’t think his potential has been played out, but there’s the chance he’d choose death over playing the Bard’s game (and him saying “mistake” in that epilogue was about him saying that now that he knew the Bard wasn’t done with him, he could possibly foil her plans by dying).

    Liked by 5 people

    1. caoimhinh

      I like that too, it shows that EE reads our comments and take them into consideration.
      Do you remember that part a couple of chapters ago when Cat mentioned the number of horses taken by the Helikean Cataphracts as being more than the actual number of riders and how they probably had others in a camp somewhere nearby?
      Both things had been mentioned in comments in the previous chapter in a discussion between readers, so EE taking those comments and incorporating that information in the story is pretty nice.
      Readers have tons of info that can help a writer improve the story, so it’s awesome when they check it and apply it. I guess that’s one of the greatest advantages of a web serial.

      Liked by 5 people

      1. Are you sure EE is taking this from the comments and wouldn’t have done the exact same thing without them?

        Answering questions raised by the previous chapter in the next one particularly doesn’t need readers’ response to be obvious 😐

        Like

        1. We do know EE is reading the comments and at least sometimes responding to them, but it’s an open question how much he’s drawing from the comments, versus just getting technical points right, so that the more knowledgeable commenters can spot some things in advance that simply need to happen.

          Liked by 2 people

          1. Yeah.

            I’m pretty sure the ‘answer narrative questions that were /just/ discussed in the comments’ falls into pre-planned category tho lmao. It’s not like EE rolls dice to decide what to cover next, things flow into one another.

            The technical things like horses are more plausible, though I still suspect EE knew this already.

            Liked by 1 person

        2. caoimhinh

          Hmm, true. But it seemed too precise, even the wording was similar to that of the comment talking about the horses and the other talking about the camp. And since those were details never mentioned before (even that logistic of having more horses than riders in the Army of Callow was never mentioned before, despite it being something obvious in hindsight) it seems natural to consider that the information came from the one who mentioned it first, the commenter. It’s not like it’s something bad, just that it seems that bit of insight came from the readers, using that is perfectly fine and actually recommendable, since it can improve the story giving it consistency and also clearing readers’ doubts that ambiguity or passing over the subject would have generated.

          It wouldn’t even be the first time it happened in this story actually; as early as Volume 1, when Black first gave Cat a lesson in how to ‘fight and kill’, he showed her how to fight using a legionary’s shield, a commenter pointed out that such thing was only viable for troop battles in a formation, not individual combat since the legionaries shield was designed to fight relying on others covering you from the sides, and thus was not the type of fighting style Black was supposedly teaching Cat; a couple of chapters later Cat then mentioned that Black actually used a smaller shield when he fought, that the first lesson was only about how legionaries fought and after that he taught her how to fight using sword and smaller shield which was his fighting style. Nevertheless in Cat’s following battles she fought using the “middle-height stance” that Black taught her in the first lesson (which was supposedly only for legion formation), but whatever, she later dropped even that and developed her own style. And also the retconning of rulers of Vaccei (the first characters introduced as being from Champion’s Blood) to be from Bandit’s Blood, which was first pointed out by readers long before EE went back to fix that.

          Point is, there’s a chance that EE is answering people’s doubts from comments and using information readers provide to improve in the details of the story, nothing bad with that, I think that’s a good thing.
          An webnovel author that listens and properly answers the readers words is way better than one who doesn’t.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. Yeah, it is, you’re very not wrong. I’m just annoyed by the ‘ooooh the writer is reading the comments to know where to take the story next!’ stance I’ve seen in more than one fandom -_-

            Liked by 1 person

            1. caoimhinh

              Ahh, I see, it was a misunderstanding then. Sorry if my initial comment sounded like that, I intended it as praise for taking trivia and comments from readers and incorporating those details to the story, while answering our questions through the chapters, since that enriches the novel.

              I agree with you, it would be a huge disrespect to any author to say that they don’t know where to take their story.

              Liked by 1 person

              1. Like, answering questions through the chapters = like erratic didn’t first raise those questions through the chapters 😐

                I mean I do figure that like once in a blue moon there’d be an adjustment but imho yeah it’s disrespectful to have that as your first guess for why the chapter seemed to mirror the comment section.

                Liked by 1 person

  4. danh3107

    I’m not satisfied by this chapter. My opinion means very little in the end but honestly, it feels like you skipped the actually interesting conversation at the end to make a snappy closing line. Oh and Viv has no name, we don’t know if she’s getting a new one or not and it doesn’t seem like we’ll find out any time soon.

    So the group of named called the Woe had one and a half books before becoming three named and two normal people. Sure sure “roles are more important than names” yadda yadda, but this series started with the concept of Names and how they worked. Now they’re almost entirely irrelevant. I can’t lie and say that doesn’t bother me.

    Maybe you’re building up to something, maybe cat and viv are making new names like Masego did but I don’t know.

    I hope you understand erratic that I really love this story and I’m just putting my thoughts out. Thanks for writing.

    Liked by 4 people

    1. magesbe

      Cat may not have a Name, but she’s hardly a normal person. And I still believe that Viv will transition into a new Name eventually, give it a bit. She’s been onscreen all of 2 chapters as a non-Named now.

      Like

      1. I miss the names too they served to define characters.

        My favorite moments were when characters seized names at integral moments or used aspects. Chidur vs Cat was my favorite fight, two characters who were just not fighting to survive but for there dream(there narrative/destiny).

        When a named used an aspect it wasn’t just a cool power they got or bought. The aspect was a part of there life that they earned. When two names fought it was two stories clashing.

        We as the readers can reflect on the epic emboldened letters when Hakram learned Stand or Sabbah learning Obey(epic) wonder how the heroes/villains gained there aspect.

        I am selfish in these opinions, I will continue to read and vote but the story has lost a bit of the spark that enthralled me.

        Liked by 4 people

    2. Tom

      “this series started with the concept of Names and how they worked. Now they’re almost entirely irrelevant.”

      The gods Above and Below bestow Names upon individuals in a back and forth cyclical struggle that perpetuates lots of violence and suffering for all the inhabitants of Calernia. Ending the Arcadian cycle was foreshadowing for ending the cycle of violence perpetuated by the gods via Names… so I wouldn’t count on Cat & co coming back into Names.

      I actually liked the content post-Name for Cat more, her winter powers were pretty neat. I wouldn’t mind seeing her dicking around more with Night though 🙂 Actually I really liked the scenes in Keter with the elf and the horned lord… I’m hoping for more fight scenes against reality-warping characters in the future 🙂

      Oh yeah, the character development is good too. *cough

      Liked by 7 people

      1. Zachary

        Yeah, the “moving beyond Names” stuff is an important part of the narrative. Names are bestowed by Above/Below, so it stands to reason that the only way to potentially “break the cycle” is for people outside of that framework to act.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. I would believe that if Cat had not just appointed a new god. Or if her only endgame against the Dead King/hidden horror was to bottle him up. Cat’s goals were always centered in Calow she uses any means necessary for victory.

          If the author chose she would employ heroic or even villainous characters to do her bidding.

          I’m just saying narrative may have been moving against names that existed as absolute evil or good but maybe new names can rise. Ones that embody the new regime ignoring morality.

          Unless of course the goal is a peaceful circle of people holding hands. The only way the gods lose is if there is no conflict. This names will always be bestowed onto either side of a conflict.

          Like

    3. Azure

      I agree. The conversation with Vivienne not being fleshed out robs us as readers. Like why would so little detail be provided about a conversation between two of the Woe who haven’t seen each other in nearly a year. It feels like Vivienne is no longer important or worth investing in as she’s just glossed over. Honestly I love this story but I’ve been finding it increasingly easy to wait for the next update. The Everdark portion dragged out way too long, and now Catherine is turning into somebody I don’t really like. And the glossing over of conversations with characters that have been missing from the narrative just makes me lose interest. I might take a break and come back in a few months. Maybe saving up to read several chapters at once will help with the frustration of seeing so little information provided in each part.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Andrew Mitchell

        I think that’s a viable strategy given your feelings. I’m currently waiting until the end of Mother of Learning before I binge the last major arc.

        Personally, I’m disappointed not to see that conversation with Vivienne however, I’m pretty sure EE has a very good reason for not showing us that conversation now and I trust EE to deliver a bigger payoff later. Maybe seeing it from Vienne’s perspective as an Interlude?

        Liked by 2 people

    4. Jecherio

      I feel that this actually makes the guide even better because it does not limit its characters to named. And if you followed up until know, you know the drawbacks of a name too. I feel this is more an evolution then anything else.

      Liked by 3 people

    5. Vortex

      Personally I like that they aren’t just crutching on name mechanics to win every fight or execute every plan. It gives their decisions, both good and bad, a lot more weight. Catherine single handedly obliterating thousands of enemy soldiers with night goddess shenanigans isn’t nearly as cool as her sitting in front of them, alone, bluffing them into stopping the charge.

      Liked by 6 people

      1. Names can’t constitute the meat of the story. They’re always a reflection/exaggeration of something real. Getting to see the non-exaggerated version be exactly as awesome is… good storytelling, imho.

        Like

    6. Stormblessed

      I partially agree with you. I think it would’ve been nice to have Cat’s conversation with Viv out in the open instead of in the margins. Although I’m not sure how necessary it is, but yeah, like 90% on board there.

      I disagree about the name stuff however. For one thing Cat basically has a Name even though it isn’t a true Name, she’s still High Priest of Night and Black Queen besides. It isn’t an official one, but it’s close enough for government work.

      However, Viv’s lack of a name is story relevant. For it explores names in the other direction. How does one lose a name? What does losing a name mean for a person? How does a group of ostensibly Named individuals fare when one of their own loses a name? These questions tie directly back to the point of the story being about Named and so Viv losing her name is a good thing there.

      Liked by 2 people

    7. > “My opinion means very little in the end but honestly, it feels like you skipped the actually interesting conversation at the end”

      I don’t think that conversation got elided for the sake of a snappy closing line. I think that it was because Vivienne’s full reasoning is based on plot-relevant information that the author isn’t ready to divulge yet. I could be wrong ofc, but at present my expectation is the details of the conversation will come forward explicitly once knowing them will no longer undermine whatever EE is building up to. Personally, I’d guess that Viv felt the need to come to Iserre with a major force bc she/the Jacks dug something up about Hierarch since who/what exactly Tyrant is aiming him at seems like the biggest or at least most mysterious Sword of Damocles hanging over everyone’s plans right now. And it would make sense EE mightn’t want to spoil that mystery for the sake of describing a debriefing conversation. All just guesswork of course, but it hangs together for me at least.

      Liked by 2 people

  5. Matt

    Hmm….I think Cat comes off as overly prideful, here – at least to some extent.

    Yes, Juniper fucked up, and that needed to come out, but this level of dressing down, especially in combination with what happened last chapter, IMO makes Cat look like a jerk than anything else.

    Yes, there were valid point to criticize, but it felt less like members of the Woe interacting, and more like the Queen yelling at her retainers – which, while is kind of mentioned as being the point near the end of the chapter, only serves to make Cat less likable, IMO.

    The segment with Cat saying ‘I worked with her (Vivienne) to help her ‘avoid’ her mistakes twice’ is also somewhat hilariously ironic, given how badly she messed up in the whole situation with procuring the Drow/Sve Noc, and literally gambled all of Callow’s future with it. Congrats on turning Viv into a sycophant.

    And that’s not even taking into consideration the oath she now has no intention of keeping with Vivienne regarding killing Akua.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. magesbe

      Cat’s mistakes and Viv’s mistakes were different. Cat is saying here that if she were in Vivienne’s place, she wouldn’t have made those mistakes. Making your own mistakes doesn’t disqualify you from being able to correct others, especially if those mistakes weren’t the same (or even if they were but you learned from yours).

      Also, even Hakram isn’t a sycophant, and there’s no member of the Woe who’s ever going to be as much of a yes-man as him for Cat.

      Liked by 7 people

    2. Death Knight

      Not for naught is she called the Black Queen.

      I don’t know if you can still recall when Black SPOKE to her all the way back in Summerholm? I think many of the readers (myself included) did not like him at all when he was like that. However if the character polls are any indication, a vast majority of the readers have moved on from that. This too shall pass once the Woe is reunited and banter resumes and this chastisement is demoted to a footnote in the story of Catherine Foundling.

      Liked by 5 people

    3. Morgenstern

      Actually, it was explicitly said in just the last chapter that Cat DOES still want to keep the oath. She told it to Hakram… Akua will be Akua until the Doom of Liesse has to go – but she STILL will have to go in the end, no two ways about it. Because there is absolutely nothing that can forgive what she did, she HAS to pay. That’s exactly what Cat told Hakram she intends to do; him understanding and accepting that smaller change without many big words about it (much smaller in comparison to what you seem to say here, I mean; her going back on that vow – she doesn’t, she fully intends to fucking keep it; Akua WILL pay – only she will pay as “Doom of Liesse”, the Praesi noble she acted as, while she will be allowed to be the nicer person Akua while she is still useful/necessary, adopting, in some ways, Akua’s own thoughts about being two personas – she still has only one existence and will pay with that, so Akua will pay for the noble’s mistakes, too – in the end; she just gets some smaller mercy of being allowed some niceties before being killed in the end, as a reward for being nice now.. being allowed to try to balance the scales somewhat before she gets killed… Cat’s oath was to kill Akua eventually, but use her beforehand for as much as her uses are worth, anyway, as just another kind of payment,, Cat is just being nicer about using her now, instead of being a sadist slaver…).

      Liked by 1 person

  6. I like the callback to what she as a person vs the black queen need/do/feel etc, i think that while in most points they are right that the needs of the queen supercede those of the individual she is also wrong because those feeling and needs dopn’t dissapear, they are just bottled up until it explodes and i think part of what happened was that, she didn’t allow herself to really grieve for Nauk (ok just befoe the funeral maybe but the need to put it aside strained her) among other things and so we had this little eruction.

    And who says she doesn’t carry her own little PTSD?

    Liked by 5 people

    1. medailyfun

      I don’t like floating notion of PTSD in comments, cause in medieval society it was more like a common background in everyone’s lives, not something extraordinary that we see today.

      Like

          1. So I read at least the top 1-2 replies on 6 of the links pertaining to that, focusing specifically on the ones pertaining to ancient/medieval life ofc. And, uh, none of them seem to really support you?

            You said that “in medieval society [PTSD] was more like a common background in everyone’s lives, not something extraordinary that we see today.” But the biggest common thread across the replies is “there isn’t enough data to necessarily support drawing a conclusion about the prevalence or existence of PTSD as we would recognize it” which definitely is not the same thing as what you said, and the second biggest commonality was that most of them then followed that with “but here’s some indicative examples that suggest PTSD may have been a real thing with serious effects in ancient life, even if they didn’t conceptualize it in the same way we do in a modern/Western context”. There is repeated reference to the concept that differing cultural standards meant that the commission of violence against others wasn’t necessarily traumatic in the way we normally expect it to be nowadays, but that very specific aspect of what can potentially *cause* PTSD doesn’t seem especially relevant to the question of whether it was a real thing in ancient/medieval life regardless of specific cause.

            If you disagree with my interpretation of any of those threads that’s your prerogative of course, but I would be interested in hearing what you’re looking at that makes you see it differently. I would post the links but the last time I did that with a reddit post it plugged the entire post into my comment and idk exactly what you did differently to make that not happen. However I can at least post the titles of the threads for greater ease of reference. They were:

            “Was PTSD any more, or any less, prevalent amongst ancient and medieval soldiers than todays soldiers?”
            “Are there any indications of combat PTSD in societies like the Spartans, Khan’s or Alexander’s armies?”
            “Did men of the past suffer emotional trauma from war and killing?”
            “Did people in ancient/medieval times suffer from PTSD?”
            “Are there any examples of PTSD in ancient wars?”

            Liked by 2 people

            1. medailyfun

              Your summary is sound, it was just bad phrasing on my side, I meant the medieval life in general came with so much stress and violence that things which may cause PTSD in modern environment probably would not make them flinch.

              Like

              1. Mm fair enough, desensitization to violence is def a thing and so is not picking the right phrasing (as I can attest from my life as well lol). It’s worth noting that is definitely not the only possible source of PTSD however, and at least based on the handful of reddit comments I just read (AKA, not actually all that much lol) it seems like that desensitization applied more to specifically the commission of violence yourself. If Cat would have PTSD about anything, I don’t think anyone would argue it’s because she has a problem with the violence she’s committed; it would be vastly more likely to be because of the parade of horrors she’s endured (e.g., the Winter-fueled nightmare marathon she suffered during the Battle of the Camps and won’t discuss even with Hakram) and never really addressed in favor of pushing forward because she doesn’t think she’s allowed to matter to herself too much, or because of the horrors she feels she’s failed to prevent (e.g. most notably the Doom of Liesse).

                Liked by 1 person

    2. lennymaster

      Recent discoveries indicate that PTSD may not merly be a psycholical problem, but also a physical one caused by tissue damage and scarring in the brain due to side effects of medication and or vibrations caused by extremly loud noises and explosions. It may be that PTSD is not just something that was unkown until recently but that it actually was less of an issue when guns, grenades and bombs were still an unkown.
      One medication example would be a anesthetic that was used during the vietnam war that has by now been proven to cause mental issues when used with loud noices around. It is still used to this day as it works very well for people who react allergically to the more common ones, but only with extrem caution.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. While we’ve certainly learned a lot more about he various ways a human mind can be damaged by war, there are reports of similar syndromes running back to mythology. ISTR a article or book with the keywords “… and he looked into her helmet” (which is an Iliad reference).

        Liked by 1 person

  7. Quite Possibly A Cat

    So how is this ID check thing working? It really feels like it should blow up in her face.

    Cat: ” I feel like I’m forgetting something really important, so let’s hurry.”
    Random Mage: “Alright, this won’t hurt a bit.” *Stabs Cat in the heart* “This was an imposter. There are many things that lead me to this conclusion, but the biggest sign is how she’s bleeding and slumped over dead.”
    Cat’s Ghost: “Sve Noc, I need a resurrection over here, stat!”

    Liked by 11 people

    1. curious

      I think the most important part of this chapter was Vivian saying, ‘None of this counts until we confirm it’s you.’ Then she promptly ignored that and trotted off happy that she wasn’t a Woe-reject.

      This sentence, and Cat’s acceptance of an AMATEUR mage inspection, all but guarantees that she will FAIL in the next chapter and that will be our weekend cliffhanger.

      Cat’s soul is tied in a complex way to Collar Fairy who is making a Well of Night, and Cat is constantly relying on a Staff of Night. She did not deign to explain to Hakram, Vivian, or Juniper what happened to her. They will be taken by surprise, and then their response will be unpredictable and my wager is that it will inhibit Cat at a pivotal time for the Battle of the Camps.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if it is Grey Pilgrim who releases her to stop the battle and direct everyone North to fight the Dead King. Or, maybe and I think more likely, she’ll be summarily killed and the Drow will have zero reason to cooperate with Callow, we will have a POV shift for a few chapters and/or a Catherine stumbles through the Night nonsense chapter series about “personal development and character growth”, and then Masego and/or Pilgrim will resurrect her. My strong odds is on Pilgrim being instrumental in what comes next for her. I also think Juniper and Vivian will take to heart her admonition even though it isn’t HER.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Which is strange, because of all characters present, it is Viv herself who is acting least “like herself”. I don’t think I got this point into a prior comment, but if we hadn’t had POV from her, it’s Viv who I’d be suspecting of being an impostor.

        And her Name-loss/breakdown still might be the result of some subtle attack from Malicia and/or Pilgrim.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. RanVor

          That’s not strange at all. Vivienne has been dealing with a situation that was completely new to her for a year off screen. It would be far stranger if she didn’t change.

          Liked by 3 people

          1. It’s not her change that’s the strange part, it’s that everyone’s focusing on Cat’s identify, when Viv’s changes are much more obvious externally.

            Cat comes back and basically does the usual — saves her armies through creativity and badassery, demonstrates her usual leadership and care for Callow and the legions, knows just how to talk to everyone (seriously, has Cat ever accidentally offended someone?). Even her flying zombie horse recognizes her immediately.

            And having come back, she finds that Viv has lost her Name, left Callow (taking her regency and seal with her) to launch a major military misadventure, dragged in Juniper (who arguably should have known better) on the same, and (despite being raised in the nobility) made a really drastic error of political judgement regarding her Queen. Just on these external points, it’s Cat who quite reasonably could ask Viv “yeah, who are you really?” (Indeed she does kinda ask that, if not “that way” and with her own plans in the background.)

            Liked by 1 person

        2. quite possibly a cat

          Viv is in the process of transitioning to the Queen of Callow. I’m not sure how much of that is intentional, and how much is unconsciously following fate, but it makes for a great story. “HAHA! It was me! I was good all along! I steal the Crown for Good!” Like she’s Snape or something. Of course, it is all part of Cat’s non-villainous plan, but we won’t write that part down.

          Liked by 2 people

      2. Phoenix

        The ritual meant to make sure that a foreign force isn’t controlling her, not that her soul hasn’t changed or that she has the power of winter. Also to call the legion mages amateurs is a bit incorrect. They aren’t well versed in High Arcana magics, but rituals are something they can do given the time to learn them. The ritual will likely happen and while the results will be like “Yeah, she’s who she says she is but her connection to her power seems filtered now. From the look of it, whatever is filtering her power doesn’t control her but I don’t know what it is.” Which will lead to Cat actually catching everyone (close officers/seniors) up with what happened in the Underdark and what not.

        Liked by 2 people

        1. You may have undue faith in the sophistication of their ritual, especially when dealing with a new and unknown power. Unfortunately, they likely will be able to determine “oh, she has a mortal body instead of a Winter construct now” — that seems pretty basic.

          Like

      3. We already had the “character growth in the Night” sequence, so I don’t think EE will repeat that. But yeah, Cat’s complete change in metaphysical status is a major issue for next chapter.

        That said, I’d assume she remembers all the passwords and countersigns, such as the one that tripped up Akua when she tried the possession bit.

        Liked by 3 people

  8. Jesse Coombs

    I find it odd everyone is saying Viv has no name. Every time we see Lady-Regent, or Lady, it is capitalised. Admitedly so are things like Marshal and Warlord, and Marshal isn’t a name. But it could indicate that she has transitioned into a ‘ruler’ type name. Which is what Cat wants/needs; a replacement for herself as Queen.

    Like

    1. magesbe

      I mean, it’s possible that Viv has a Name and is just sneaking it by everyone… but I don’t think it’s likely. People with Names can usually tell if someone else has one, unless it’s a stealth type name or they’re inexperienced.

      Liked by 3 people

        1. magesbe

          Scribe’s Role is an “out of sight, out of mind” thing where she manages affairs behind the scenes. It’s actually a pretty stealthy role, just not one that involves actual, personal infiltration.

          Liked by 2 people

  9. caoimhinh

    Interesting chapter.
    I still think this campaign was a solid military choice, despite the failures and costs of it (although that was due to unforeseeable factors and probably Narratively enforced by Creation).
    I agree that the attempt to escort Cat away to test her was bad idea to do it in front of soldiers, now that is confirmed that the identity verification needs a ritual site to carry instead of a quick inspection. I kinda expected more from those mages (not that they would be anywhere near Masego’s level, but at least they could have things ready or an artifact for the test to be done quickly if it was gonna be done in public), they really need better training, no wonder Cat was so angry that they wanted to carry that right away.

    Vivienne’s self-pity is past the point of annoying, I thought she was over that depression state. Now I understand why she participated in the campaign when she obviously belongs to the city managing the Kingdom of Callow: she wanted to prove she isn’t worthless now that she lost her Name, she is afraid that being Nameless she would be thrown out of the Woe.
    Hopefully, Viv will get over that soon and either gain a new Name or learn to live without it without feeling like trash.

    So, next chapter will be the preparation for the battle and end in Cliffhanger when the battle starts? Will be nice to see Pilgrim’s reaction when he looks at Cat once again, and hopefully Cat won’t let his words affect her again like the ‘you affect those around you’ that haunt her across Book 4. If she is going to pretend to be mature and thinking of everyone below her age as kids then she better start acting mature and not let that old man brainwash her into doubting everything again.

    Typos found:
    -when my delaying my return/ me delaying OR the delaying of my return
    -I reasons to be furious / I had reasons
    -do you believe Adjutant the Lady-Regent interfered / Adjutant or the Lady-Regent
    -she had grown in the year I’d seen her / I hadn’t seen her
    -I regretted ordering her to put her down / put it down
    -need not be so humiliating / didn’t need to be OR needed not be
    -explain your how you used them / explain yourself how you used them OR eliminate the ‘your’

    Liked by 5 people

  10. IDKWhoitis

    Admittingly, I would have preferred for Vivs repremand to be longer or more complete in detail. But within the scope that after donning her Black Queen Mask, and realizing she is the mirror image of Black, it does make sense that her mind would lose a little focus and heat.

    I like the confirmation that part of that anger was about the optics of Power within the Army of Callow, and that even with a mailed fist raised and bloodied, Cat is willing to put fear to rest within her friends.

    She was mean, she was partly cruel, but ultimately it was necessary to be the Black Queen, not Cat for once.

    I wonder if Procer will retreat in full, deciding that fighting Cat really isn’t in her best interest. It’s one thing to fight the Army of Callow in the fullness of its glory. It’s an entirely different thing to try to survive it with Cat at the helm. And we know they fear her.

    Liked by 4 people

    1. magesbe

      I think the Princess in charge might want to retreat, but this battle is a dead wringer for being the fight that will one day be called “The Prince’s Graveyard.” So there’s probably going to be a fight.

      Liked by 3 people

    2. Andrew Mitchell

      They’re not going to retreat until they’ve got at least a little more blood. Remember that Malanza is going to get convicted of treason if she doesn’t fight. The First Prince has already had that vote passed in the Highest Assembly.

      Liked by 2 people

  11. HardcoreHeathen

    I’m confused about why the conversation with Vivienne was skipped over in summary instead of the one with Juniper.

    You spent the last five or so chapters building up this meeting. Teasing questions about what Vivienne was up here, what happened to her Name, could she still be trusted, and so on. That’s roughly twenty thousand words of expectation-building, the result of which was a somewhat whiny paragraph that completely failed to meet my expectations.

    This is not a new issue. Erratic, you have a long-standing habit of hyping up events and then skipping them. It makes it very difficult to follow the emotional thread of the story, because there are quite literally beats that are simply missing. As a result of this chapter – of the conversation between Cat and Viv – I’m no clearer on any of the questions I had when I started the chapter, and I’ve gained no new information to offset that.

    I understand that you don’t have unlimited time to devote to every issue, but of the two conversations in that tent, the one with Juniper was clearly the one of lesser importance. To put this into perspective, I’ll use another example that most people have read: Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone. About twenty thousand words after the concept of Hogwarts Houses is introduced, Harry gets Sorted.

    There’s emotional weight to the scene. Time was spent building it up. And when the scene arrived, it was used as a vehicle for worldbuilding and character revelation.

    You don’t get to have your narrative cake and eat it, too – if you hype up an event, you have to spend words on it. Otherwise it’s just a confusing misstep that distracts from whatever else you’re trying to do.

    -=-=-=-=-=-

    Alright, with structural criticism out of the way: I really liked Cat’s explanation for why she got so mad about the goon squad, and what it would have looked like if she’d gone along with being “arrested.” It’s neat to see that her perception’s grown, though I’m a bit surprised that Vivienne – who has displayed an otherwise excellent political grasp – did not see it.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Andrew Mitchell

      Personally, I’m disappointed not to see that conversation with Vivienne however, I’m pretty sure EE has a very good reason for not showing us that conversation now and I trust EE to deliver a bigger payoff later. Maybe seeing it from Vienne’s perspective as an Interlude?

      Like

      1. Skaddx

        I agree also I find it weird Cat is like I don’t want to be biased so Juniper is getting a Court Martial by other Generals. Meanwhile Viv here is getting no punishment at all. How does that not look like Cat is either Biased to the Woe or Biased to Humans in general or Callowans specifically. If Juniper had so no I don’t want to leave Callow it doesn’t matter cause Viv and Hakram can overrule her. So Juniper gets to shoulder all the blame while Viv escapes by making a sad face.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. Ehhhh … the tribunal is probably something that’s relatively standard procedure for the new-model Legions of Terror that got carried over to the Army of Callow. Though, admittedly, it’s probably usually lower ranked officers that go up in front of one, since it is relatively unusual for senior officers to be personally involved in major screwups, whereas junior officers get sent out with smaller detachments and get into trouble way more often than their bosses in the command tents.
          It’s relatively standard procedure even in the real world – when a military commander is in charge of an operation that goes sideways, it gets put under review to determine whether things going sideways is because they had a bad/unrealistic plan or didn’t react appropriately to changing conditions, or because of things beyond their control and/or knowledge.

          Viv, on the other hand, is not part of the Legions or Army of Callow. There’s no procedural review board for someone in her position.
          The only people who could mean such a board are likely Cat, Hakram, Scribe, and Amadeus. And Hakram’s disqualified for standing in review of Viv’s actions because he was (presumably) deeply involved in the process that led to them being taken.
          Amadeus is who knows where, as is Scribe, not that being taken to task for her mistakes by either is something that should go over well with Viv.

          Liked by 4 people

    2. The confrontation with Juniper was more apropos now, for this chapter — precisely because they’re on (or fresh off) a battlefield.

      However, Viv’s Nameloss is about to become much more relevant, when the mage party (and Woe) realize that Cat is no longer a creature of Winter, and indeed has a connection with a whole new power they’ve never encountered before.

      Liked by 1 person

  12. broadaxe

    Why are you guys saying cat is a fuck up, or that she makes a lot of mistakes? That’s wrong, i mean yes, she does make mistakes, BUT a lot of what she does could look like mistakes but simply isn’t. Cat is story savvy and knows she has to loose to win, so a lot of her ‘mistakes’ are semi on purpose because that is how the story will turn out in her favor :3

    Liked by 1 person

  13. fbt

    i thought this was brilliant, and Cat earned a lot of respect from me for her adult behavior here. she has, rather often in the past, made apparerently idiotic and impulsive moves, survived by luck, and been..well. She started out plucky, got powerful, and then lost most of both of those attributes imho. Here she convinced me she not only could be a decent ruler (despite her own thoughts on that) but already is one. At times it has been hard to root for her..but not here. go Cat! 🙂

    Liked by 7 people

    1. Agreed. This was an opportunity to teach some hard but necessary lessons and it was done brilliantly IMO. She just came back with fifty thousand Drows and a fat stash of Dwarven gold and she comes home to an impending catastrophe? She had to save each piece of the army of Callow to get out of the mess. She’s well within her rights to be angry which she conveyed in a way where Juniper, Hune, and Vivienne can learn from. Feelings were probably hurt but they would be stronger for it and Callow would benefit as a whole.

      Liked by 2 people

  14. Valkyria

    Well. Intresting chapter.
    Cat stopped just being just angry and throwing around her thoughts but calmed herself and acted in a mostly adult way.

    I read how some comments say that it is not Juniper’s fault the campaign was a blunder and she should not be punished for it.
    My opinion to this is that, even if it is not her fault and she had good reasons for acting the way she did, somebody has to be held accountable for the blunder it ultimately resulted in. Since she holds the military power of Callow, that naturally is to be her role.
    Even in our time and age the one giving out the orders is the one who is responsible if the situation goes haywire and they “fuck up”. I think it is entirely reasonable for Cat to be holding that tribunal. Also she said she will not be present or influence it in any way, because it is not personal and only the military facts matter.
    I don’t believe it is Juniper’s fault, although I think there are certain facts that she could have taken into account (the gates not working, etc.) when creating the plan, but, as I said, somebody has to be responsible and since it were her orders and it’s her military as long as Cat’s gone, she’s got to own that.

    As to Vivienne… she’s still the scared cat she was when we last saw her, and even though Hakram lost a hand she seems as insecure and whiny as ever…
    It seems like she gets off with more of a slap on the wrist. But I think Cat acknowledging her success instead of dressing her down like Juniper actually was a good decision. Of course there was a talk that we did not hear (sadly, because I guess we would get a very good glimpse on how Viv’s mental state and general behavoir is right now, as well as there being the possibility of development. At the moment it seems to me she didn’t change at all), so Cat has probably scolded her as well.
    She did a lot of useful stuff during her regency but if she doesn’t change that attitude she has right now… I don’t think she’ll achieve much Name-wise or in general.

    Liked by 3 people

  15. Tolk

    Love the chapter, it’s a well done dressing down. But…

    [Quote] some part of me was almost disgusted at the glints of gratitude and respect I caught in her gaze when she looked at me. Like I’d not, as lovingly as callously, burned her with shame and bound her with affection so that Vivienne Dartwick would be one step closer to the woman I needed her to be. [/Quote]

    Huh? Cat? Why are you feeling disgusted by scolding poor behaviour and providing constructive criticism? You even praised her good decisions, and entrusted her with that position of power in the first place! What’s disgusting about helping your friend improve themself?

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Andrew Mitchell

      IMO Cat’s disgusted at herself for manipulating Viv (into the woman Cat needs her to be) rather than being as clear and direct with Viv as she (Cat) was with the Hellhound. We haven’t seen the conversation yet so I’m not sure, but that’s how I interpreted the part you quoted.

      Liked by 2 people

    2. Because Cat still isn’t too sure on her feet for this “command and management” business.
      To casual appearance, Viv is acting like a dog who gets kicked, and responds by cringing and trying to lick the master’s hand. Despite the smackdown being appropriate and necessary, Cat’s still uncomfortable with having to whip people into shape, and especially her friends.

      Liked by 1 person

    3. Cat is uncomfortable with having as much power/control over Vivienne emotionally as she’s been realizing she has. Vivienne values her approval and trusts her a lot more than Cat had realized previously, and that makes her feel off-balance, because she’d planned on Vivi being her double-check, someone like Juniper, unafraid to challenge her and indifferent to her disapproval.

      Like

  16. Author Unknown

    I think Juniper got off too easy.

    “deploying forty thousand legionaries through magical means of ingress and egress in the single most Name-infested region of this continent”

    The key part being Name-infested. Not taking into account the effect of Named and Narrative on her deployments was fine when she was still in the War College, but out here in the real world, she has to take such factors into account or end up annihilated. She will never be a great General if she doesn’t learn this lesson, and certainly shouldn’t be Marshal of Callow until she does. Not unless she had someone like Cat around to adviser her on those factors.

    Expecting fancy magical means of attacking and retreating to work when you are Evil and attacking Good is a mistake.
    Expecting superior numbers to work in the face of Named is a mistake.
    Expecting to waltz through the ‘most Name-infested region of this continent’ when she only has Adjunct, a support character, to help is a mistake.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. As Cat notes, she doesn’t expect political acumen, or story-fu, from Juniper. (But yes, there are limits.) Juniper may be a brilliant commander, but it’s Cat herself who brings the game-changing creativity to the fights.

      Liked by 2 people

    1. Most likely, either in disguise/hiding in Grem’s contingent, or detached from the Legions/Army of Callow and trying to figure out how to retrieve/rescue Amadeus.
      I find the latter more likely than the former, however.

      Liked by 3 people

  17. Aotrs Commander

    “Looking at a mess and knowing that loving those responsible was one thing but exempting them from consequence another.”

    That’s called being a leader, Cat.

    Also, you can stop beating yourself up over manipulating Viv, because you’re kinda blinding yourself to the fact that, yes, Black might have done it that way, but that’s because, you know, that’s how you be a good leader (or even teacher come to that; or even parent, let’s be honest), and that has nothing whatsoever to do with alignment.

    Black didn’t work like that because is was Evil manipulative pragmatism (though in his case, that was likely an element), he did it because that’s actually how you do it properly. Someone under your authority (be they servents, children, students or soldiers) fracks up, you bollock them for it (at the appropriate level), and once the bollocking is over and consequences have been dealt with, you drop it and move on. (See also Grand Admiral Thrawn on the one hand, or I dunno, Captain Picard one the other.)

    Neither screaming “I am surrounded by idiots, you have failed me fo the last time!” or going “ooh, you shouldn’t have done that, oh well, never mind” was the appropriate response; Cat did exactly what she should have done.

    Myself? I think Juniper made entirely the wrong call; it wasn’t worth risking the entire army of Callow for the remaining legionaries, especially bringing the regent along. By the time they get out of this mess, they’ll have lost more troops, I think, that they were to save.

    If they had wanted to save the Legions, they would have been better, I think, before Cat went off, so have simply had Masego locate them (if they needed to) and fairy-gated them out quickly and quietly. And if THAT was too much of a risk, then they needed to have been written off, as unfortunate as that was. (Honestly, Black taking them off marauding in the first place I thought was a bit dubious.)

    Liked by 5 people

    1. “Black didn’t work like that because it was Evil manipulative pragmatism […], he did it because that’s actually how you do it properly. ”

      QFT. But IIRC, Masego was already unavailable (working on that city) before this mess kicked off. Also, Black’s taking the legions marauding may have been some complex scheme, perhaps partly to make sure that those legions were not available to Malicia. Unfortunately, that scheme is clearly off the rails, we’ll have to see what he comes up with next.

      Liked by 1 person

  18. A fair few people have responded to the complaints about Cat berating Juniper/Vivienne excessively and made some good points. I just wanted to post a comment that I felt would bring those together in one place. To wit:

    “Command takes responsibility” is a fundamental principle of leadership. “Nobody could have predicted” doesn’t cut it, especially when in reality it’s more like “nobody did predict”; when a decision goes wrong then the person or persons furthest up the chain of command who were involved in making the decision need to own that. That is not in ANY way something Cat excuses herself from. Even though she was not in any way directly responsible for it and “couldn’t have predicted” the specifics of how it happened, the Doom of Liesse happened when Cat was in charge and she spent pretty much the whole of Book IV owning that so fully that half the fandom was complaining about her overdoing it. She isn’t being “unfair”, she’s holding Juniper and Vivienne to the exact same standard she holds herself to. The consistent application of the same standards to everyone is if anything the definition of fair.

    Liked by 5 people

    1. Yep. This is the right way to do it, that you’d need good reason to reject. “It was magic”, “I fucked up worse”, “they are my friends” all aren’t good reasons. And I want to specifically focus on that second one, because this isnt a game of gotcha or a competition. If Cat and Juniper both fucked up, it doesn’t cancel out.

      Liked by 1 person

  19. The Wild Hunt is still in play. I wonder if the promise of ‘Seven crowns plus one’ is still valid now that Winter as a unique power has ended. Perhaps said crowns will tie into the Prince’s Graveyard somehow.

    Liked by 1 person

  20. Just stumbled across this — not directly related to the story, but relevant to the milieu:
    a href=”https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/19zi6j/when_did_kingsmembers_of_the_royal_family_stop/c8srqq7/”>When did kings/members of the royal family stop leading armies on the battlefield?

    Like

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