“It is best to count one’s fingers after shaking hands with Praesi.”
– Queen Rowena Alban of Callow
I’d never gotten the full story behind that scarf. Indrani almost never took it off, with the notable exception of when she was naked and otherwise occupied, and she’d been evasive about it when I’d asked. The weave was unusual, finer and tighter than I’d ever seen of Callowan cloth, but save for that there was nothing exceptional about the grey and green scarf. It was from Mercantis, she’d said, and a gift from the Ranger. The first thing she’d ever owned. Aside from those bare bones Indrani had never spoken a word of the matter and I knew better than to push. I was not without little pieces of my own, stolen moments and memories I would rather not have put under the scrutiny of another no matter how dear to me they were. Worn as the cloth was, it seemed one of the few possessions Archer actually cared for along with her monster of a longbow. That she was a wanderer to the bone was plain enough to see, standing before me with the sum of her earthly belongings as she was. Blades, bow, a leather satchel and the clothes on her back. She neither needed nor particularly wanted more than that. A strange thought, to me. I’d not acquired a taste for luxury even after taking the crown, but having a place of my own – a home – and some comforts in it had always seemed natural. Something everyone would want.
I supposed I’d just have to make those rooms a little larger, for whenever my vagrant of a friend came back.
“Snow’s crisp,” Indrani said. “Wind’s calm. Good night for a stroll.”
“I’d tell you to be careful,” I said, “but somehow I don’t see that happening.”
Tugging down her scarf to flash an admittedly roguish smile, Archer winked at me. This was not, I decided, in the least reassuring.
“I’ll be the very soul of prudence,” she lied.
Leaving me to stand leaning on my staff, she quickly darted across the snow to take Hakram’s shoulder in hand. Half a hug, a rough display of affection.
“Keep an eye on them, Hakram,” she said, without a hint of irony. “You know how careless they get without me around to chaperone.”
Adjutant leaned down to gently knock his forehead against her own. Neck angled a little to the side, I noted, as to allow for Indrani to rip open his throat with her fangs were she an orc. A display of trust and kinship, the kind orcs usually reserved for their close family.
“If you die, I’ve staked a claim on your bow,” he told her.
That startled a laugh out of her, along with jeering about how he was supposed to shoot anything when he kept dropping hands all over the place. Akua was standing a little to the side of them, high-collared dress of pale and gold sweeping down to her feet. For all the apparent slenderness of the cloth, she was unaffected by the chill of the night. Indrani clapped her shoulder amicably, which the shade allowed with a fondly tolerant smile.
“You know, since I’m leaving-” Archer began.
Diabolist sighed.
“Fine,” she conceded. “Look your fill.”
Indrani’s brow rose in surprise, then she grinned eagerly. Did I even want to know? A heartbeat passed, and Akua did not move.
“You’re still wearing clothes,” Archer pointed out, sounding a little cheated.
“According to certain interpretations of Trismegistan theory, I am in fact naked at all times,” the shade drily replied.
“Praesi treachery,” Indrani cursed.
Adjutant’s silhouette loomed tall at my side, the orc calmly studying the scene. Lingering on the smile that came easy to Archer’s lips, the almost mellow way Diabolist stood even when so close to her. The last time he’d seen the two of them together, I thought, Indrani had suggested firing arrows at Akua for sport. Before the Everdark, I thought, but that was only part of it. Before Great Strycht, in truth, and the choices made there. Hakram had not been part of those dark hours, and might not understand the ties they had forged. Vivienne, I considered, almost certainly would not. The musings were set aside when Archer finished her usual ritual of taunts and insults with Diabolist, nonchalantly returning to me. She hesitated and I went rifling through my cloak, fingers emerging tightened around a silver flask I tossed at her. Nimbly snatching it out of the air, she cocked an eyebrow at me.
“Iserran brandy,” I lied.
It was, in fact, the foulest-tasting belt of drow senna I’d been able to get my hands on. Hopefully she’d choke on the muddy taste of the mushroom-made liquor while expecting a smooth Proceran distillate. That ought to teach her covers were not to be hogged when it was this cold out and your queen was very much mortal again.
“But I didn’t get you anything,” she pouted, putting away the flask even as she did.
“That’s quite-”
I could have struggled and perhaps even blocked her, but when she put a hand on my waist and dipped me backwards I decided to allow Indrani her way. The kiss was rough, though in a way she knew I liked, and the warmth of her was stirring.
“There,” she said, after withdrawing.
I coughed to hide my breath was a little uneven.
“There,” I very eloquently agreed.
Her hand remained on my shoulder and she met my eyes, this time with serious mien.
“I’ll find him, Cat,” Indrani said. “Bring him home in one piece.”
I nodded, just as serious.
“If one of us can, it’s you,” I replied. “I’ll be expecting the both of you back.”
“You’ve gotten so demanding since they put a crown on your head,” Indrani snorted.
This time we parted for good, and with a casual wave of the hand at all of us she began her trek into the snow. Under the last sliver of the warning moon I watched her leave to recover Masego. Hakram and Akua came to stand at my sides, flanking me in shared silence until finally I breathed out.
“Come on,” I said. “Adjutant, I want to show you something.”
I glanced at Diabolist, who nodded back. Good, it was about time I had a close look at the well I’d charged her to gather.
—
I could feel the slow, constant pulse of the Night even from over fifty feet away.
Akua had put up comprehensive layers of wards around the tent, but that much accumulated power could never be entirely hidden. To me, who stood First Under the Night, it was like feeling a warm whisper of wind against my skin. Diabolist’s eyes looked brighter, her body more… tangible the closer we came, but it was Hakram’s reaction that interested me. He was the only one of the three of us who truly still bore a Name, after all. I could see in the way he straightened his back and free his hand from encumbrance that he was feeling something, at least. He met my gaze uneasily.
“There’s a scent in the air,” he gravelled. “Like coolness and dark.”
“Sharp nose,” Diabolist said, and she ushered us into her workshop.
I’d only been in here once before, at the start, and when the well had barely even taken shape. This was rather more advanced, I thought. Field conditions were no friend to the kind of precision work mages of Akua and Masego’s favoured at the exclusion of almost all else, but Diabolist had made do on the road. The ground beneath the tent was bereft of snow and had been glassed by a Mighty’s flame to be perfectly level. The shade glared at us when we entered until we rid our boots of the worst of the snow, and she went through a pack to retrieve cloths for us to wipe them entirely clean afterwards. Akua herself almost danced to the side of the artefact she was constructing, steps light and elated like a girl at her first summer fair. Adjutant’s eyes remained peeled on the well for a long moment, until he let out a shuddering breath.
“What,” he said, “exactly is that?”
“Our answer to the Grey Pilgrim,” I said.
In a sardonic bit of humour Akua had actually built it to look like a wishing well, though one held up above the floor by four curved supports of lead. Lead, I had learned from my recent studies, held strong properties of stability and grounding if never touched by fire. Held up by those supports was a disc of polished onyx, and from that bottom rose the shape of a well. Shards of obsidian bound together by thin strands of copper – there was, allegedly, no better metal for bridging – made up a glittering octagon, though several large swaths of the side were still empty. Above the well itself, two slender pillars of amethyst-studded copper held up a quaint little angled roof. The roof itself was made of the same obsidian-and-copper assembly as the well, though compared to the octagon the progress made in filling it was farther along. Unsurprising: every shard from the well contained the full exertion of a Mighty’s Night from dusk till dawn, but the roof held only the same by sigil-holders.
“At this pace, the main body will be finished within seven nights,” Diabolist said. “The upper receptacles-”
“Roof,” I drily said. “She means roof.”
“- will take within twenty to thirty nights,” she finished, as if I had never spoken. “Though the artefact itself will be functional after the upper receptacles are half-filled, which will be achieved two dawns from now.”
“Won’t be as strong, though,” I said.
“Which would only be an issue if you meant to directly oppose a foe’s miracles,” Akua said.
Hakram stepped forward hesitantly, boots crisply sounding against the floor. He leaned over the roof, thickly-ridged brow knotting.
“I recognize some of this,” he said. “Praesi sorcery.”
Diabolist let out a pleased little noise.
“Indeed,” she said. “The underlying structure is Trismegistan, of course, though I required some… consultation with Sve Noc before I could properly account for the properties of the Night.”
“And what does it do?” Adjutant asked.
I began moving forward, then suddenly stopped. My staff had begun to pulse, the Night I had woven within beckoned by Akua’s much more complex creation. Unwilling to risk the power still sleeping inside, I propped it up against the side of the tent and limped forward instead. Hakram extended an arm without a word, and I gratefully leaned on it. Fingers tracing the obsidian of the roof, I drew his attention to three symbols in Crepuscular carved on the frame. They reappeared in the patterns, over and over again.
“Years ago, when we were still kids playing war games in the Tower’s shadow, I had a talk with Kilian,” I said. “I told her that Juniper was actually predictable, in a way, because if she had all the information she nearly always made the right choice.”
I smiled, almost melancholy at the memory of those simpler days.
“Presumptuous of me to say, as she proved in swift order, but I learned to temper the principle,” I said. “But for this? Oh, I know how they’re going to swing at us. They tipped their hand at the Battle of the Camps, Hakram. They have one tool that could really cripple us, so it’s a near-certainty it’ll be used.”
“And so you prepared an answer,” Adjutant said.
I ran my thumb against the three symbols. One did not need to know Crepuscular, to glimpse their meaning, for the written language of the drow could sometimes be of obvious meanings. The sun rampant, the sun halved, the sun veiled.
“So we prepared an answer,” I softly agreed.
We left Akua to her toil, after that, filling a well I hoped would not be needed. Yet, as with the sword I had been leaning on in the shape of a staff, I was not certain I would have a choice.
Waste of wastes, but what else could I do?
—
Marching across Iserre with an army of near seventy thousand, even if fifty thousand of those were drow, was not a quick or quiet affair. The Fourth and Third had been put through twin ringers of constant pursuit and assault, and to be frank both had been reaching the end of their rope. Yet I couldn’t afford to slacken our march, either, as drow scouts began reporting that the Levantine army we’d fought the vanguard of at Sarcella was on our tail. Still more than a week behind us, but the reason for that delay became clear when reports of banners not of the Dominion emerged: they’d had Principate reinforcements. Either southern levies hastily put together, or more dangerously the border army of twenty-thousand the First Prince had garrisoned in Tenerife to discourage incursion by the League. Which meant Kairos and his allies had let the lot of them through, because they shouldn’t have had the strength to push back a determined League force. If it truly was Hasenbach’s southern army, that was bad news indeed. Those would be professional soldiers, in majority, that the First Prince had judged would be able to either slow or turn back an invasion by the entire League of Free Cities. They wouldn’t be pushovers, or peasants with spears.
The forced halt of several hours every dawn further complicated our advance, as it needed to be compensated for by marching after nightfall if we didn’t want to lose almost a third of the day’s march. The Firstborn significantly quickened after dusk, of course, but my legionaries most definitely did not. The disjointed peaks made planning awkward, especially as I was wary of simply sending a significant drow force ahead: we were headed into contested grounds, now. A force of five thousand Firstborn caught just after dawn by Levantine or Proceran cavalry would be severely bled, and sending a legionary escort with them would defeat the entire purpose of the exercise. There was no obvious fix to the issue, and none of my three current generals – Abigail, Bagram, Rumena – suggested a feasible alternative. We’d just have to awkwardly force our way forward as fast as we could, hoping we’d get to Juniper before the opposition did.
It was a mere six days after the Fourth was brought back into the fold that we ran into our first enemy outriders.
“Proceran,” General Bagram opined. “Alamans, at a guess. The Arlesites tend to carry javelins.”
Adjutant grunted in agreement. The Fourth had taken the front, today, so it was them who’d sent for me when riders were seen on the horizon. The two of them were on foot, which given that I was seated atop Zombie meant for once I towered taller than either of them.
“That’s at least sixty horsemen,” I noted, shielding my eyes from the sun with my hand. “Screening company, you think?”
“Seems likely,” Bagram said. “Finally good news, eh?”
I nodded thoughtfully. The riders were to our northwest, and if they’d been sent there to watch four our advance it meant we were getting close to Juniper’s position. It also meant, though, that the northern armies of the Dominion and Procer were close enough to the Hellhound that were keeping an eye out for sudden reinforcements to her position. So we’re not the only ones at your gate, Juniper, I thought.
“No point in sending foot after them,” Adjutant said. “They’d be long gone by the time any legionary got there.”
“So we don’t send legionaries,” I replied. “One of you get a message to General Rumena, I want the Losara Sigil to send a warband in pursuit immediately.”
“Even light foot won’t catch up to horse,” General Bagram told me as delicately as an orc could, which wasn’t very.
I forced down the sharp swell of irritation.
“No, General Bagram, during the day it will not,” I flatly said. “Should the horsemen rest at night, however, the Firstborn might very well catch them by surprise if they begin pursuing right now.”
I must not have hidden my annoyance completely, because Bagram saluted and promptly volunteered to speak with Rumena himself. He wasn’t a bad commander, I knew. More experienced than any of my Rat Company officers, he’d been the second of General Istrid for decades and effectively run her general staff while she fought on the frontlines. But he wasn’t one of mine: he was one of Black’s people, in some deep manner. From Black’s crop of soldiers shaped by my teacher’s own decades of war. Bagram would not trust my judgement the way Juniper or Nauk would have. I was, in his eyes, still very much the Carrion’s Lord apprentice. A promising successor but not my teacher’s equal.
“The temper’s back, at least,” Hakram amusedly said.
I glared at him.
“He might as well have called me an idiot,” I retorted.
“He’s fresh to your service,” Adjutant said. “And a hint of fang will be good for your relationship. Bagram was second to Istrid Knightsbane, a hard look won’t offend him.”
I grunted, somewhat mollified.
“It’s better now,” Adjutant pensively said. “When your hackles go up, it’s still you. Not Winter hunger with a Foundling shape to it.”
I glanced away.
“That was me too, Hakram,” I said. “Just with large enough a hammer everything looked like a nail.”
“It was you on a dark day that never quite passed,” the orc disagreed, head shaking in slight disagreement. “And whispers in your ear. You handled it better than most would have, but the marks were there.”
“You never said anything,” I frowned.
“You were drinking aragh like water, at the start,” Hakram said. “But you got it under control after some prodding. That meant you weren’t frozen, just slowed. I was willing to wait.”
My fingers clenched.
“Maybe you shouldn’t have,” I said.
“It didn’t make you worse, Catherine,” Adjutant said. “Jagged edges, true, but those weren’t sunny days. Jagged kept a lot of people breathing.”
“Killed just as many,” I said.
Adjutant turned to me, the glare of the sun casting shadows like scar across his leathery face. The dark, deep-set eyes were as serene as I’d always known them to be.
“You did what needed doing,” Hakram Deadhand said. “It wasn’t all pretty, and most won’t thank you for it. But you kept Callow standing until it could stand, and even with Winter in your soul it was a peace you strove for.”
He bared a thin stripe of ivory fangs, chidingly.
“It’s a gentle sort of tyranny, by my reckoning, that you would name the worst of you,” he said.
I released the grip on my reins, slowly.
“It’s a little uncanny, sometimes,” I said. “The way you always know what to say.”
His fangs clicked amusedly.
“That is who we are,” Adjutant simply said.
I stroked Zombie’s mane and spurred her slightly, enough that she danced to the side and my leg grazed his side. We stayed there for a while, watching the riders on the horizon, until he spoke up again.
“So,” he said. “Archer?”
I cocked my head to the side.
“I know there’s a risk in sending her after Masego when there’s heroes on the prowl, to the both of us, but-”
“You are letting her leave to return with a victory,” Hakram interrupted in a rumbling voice, “and sending a trusted and powerful Named after what could be a disastrous trouble. I’m well aware, Cat. As you are that I wasn’t asking about that at all.”
I cleared my throat.
“Surprised you waited this long to ask,” I said.
“Wasn’t entirely sure until the farewell display,” the orc admitted. “You two have always been…”
Yeah, he didn’t really need to elaborate on that. For both our sakes, really.
“It’s a thing,” I said. “That is happening. On occasion.”
“But not,” Hakram said, “too frequently?”
“We’re not involved, if that’s what you’re asking,” I said.
“Ah,” he hummed. “Unusual, for you.”
He didn’t ask the question, only leaving the door open to elaborate if I felt like it. Gods, I’d missed him.
“I’m in the middle of a continent-wide war,” I eventually said. “Romance isn’t exactly a priority.”
“But,” Hakram said.
“Might be something I want eventually,” I shrugged. “Won’t be anytime soon, or with her. We know where we stand, and regardless there’s the… Masego situation.”
“That’s been hard to get a read on,” the orc said.
“Like watching denial and obliviousness waltz,” I snorted. “Though I have to wonder how much of those there really are, when it comes down to it.”
Masego had his habits, but he wasn’t exactly blind. Mostly he missed cues, or misread the reasons for things – I suspected his upbringing hadn’t helped, both because of the men who’d raised him and the environment they’d raised him in. I could hardly think of a more terrifyingly frustrating place for a boy who’d had difficulty understanding others than Praesi aristocratic circles. When it came to the Woe he tended to catch onto things fairly well, and ask when he thought he was missing something. And he’d asked me to take care of Indrani before leaving for Thalassina, noting her to be upset. As for Indrani, well, what she said and what she thought weren’t always the same thing. Especially when it came to what she considered shamefully soft attachments, like admitting she loved people who loved her. Fucking Ranger, I uncharitably thought.
“I don’t think it would be an issue if we kept doing this after we’re all back together,” I finally added.
Hakram bowed his head in agreement.
“Tell me you’re not sleeping with the other one, at least,” he gravelled.
I choked.
“Akua?” I protested. “Gods no. I mean, don’t get me wrong, just look at her-”
“You often do,” the orc said. “Though I don’t see the appeal, to be honest. She’s dangerous, I suppose, but all soft and fleshy.”
“Those can, uh, be good things,” I muttered. “But she’s still Akua, Hakram.”
“I am aware,” Adjutant said. “But I wonder if that means the same thing it used to, Cat. For you, at least, and perhaps Indrani.”
“This the softer predecessor of the crucible Vivienne is going to put me through?” I said, a tad sharply.
The orc shook his head.
“I wasn’t down there,” he said. “You will have reasons for this, though you haven’t shared them. I want to know where we stand with her, that’s all.”
Silence reigned, for a long moment.
“I am no longer bound by the oath to kill her,” I acknowledged.
“But,” Hakram said.
“One hundred thousand souls,” I said. “There has to be a price for that.”
He slowly nodded.
“Until then, she is to be Akua,” the orc murmured. “Not the Doom of Liesse.”
I did not reply. I did not need to.
—
Before dawn, Ivah came back with four survivors from the Proceran outriders. We were two days’ march away from Juniper, which was pleasing.
The enemy had beaten us there, which was not.
Thanks for the chapter!
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“Praesi treachery,” Indrani cursed.
I’m crying. Just great.
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This line was just great. They’re really getting together well, the murderer and… the other murderer. Huh.
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The mass murderer and the non-mass murderer :3
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The mass murderer and the sniper.
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“I’m not a CRAZED GUNMAN, dad, I’m an assassin! Well the difference being one of them’s a job and the other’s a mental sickness!”
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Yas.
Indrani sure as fuck doesn’t act like it, but sniper low key IS her combat speciality.
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The serial murderer and the massively parallel murderer.
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Only of combatants!
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Warrior vs War Criminal.
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^^ ❤
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Go vote!
http://topwebfiction.com/vote.php?for=a-practical-guide-to-evil
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Gotcha by a few seconds!
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True! Nicely done!
I will have to step up my game,
*Evil Laugh*
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Come check the discord also, https://discord.gg/cr5heQ
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Well shit. This is now going to be a mild to moderate clusterfuck even if it goes well.
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I love how clusterfucks have sliders now. Could have sworn when people say ‘clusterfuck’, it’s always safe to assume the worst. What’s the highest on the scale, by the way?
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I think “Pandemonium” is the highest on the fuckery scale of messy situations, right above “Everything falling apart” and can be close to Nightmare Fuel events.
It can be a world-ending scenario if the protagonist’s gay friend makes a pact with an Evil Entity; involving an eclipse is optional XD
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An Absolute Clusterfuck.
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Isn’t it FUBAR?
While SNAFU is the lightest?
Military always has acronyms to describe the important scenarios.
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Hakram just called Akua fat, that’s a bit disingenuous….
SHE THICC
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He called her soft and fleshy. That doesn’t mean fat. I could be called soft and fleshy at 155lbs, if only because I’ve very little muscle tone with a small gut.
Soft and Fleshy applied to Akua means RAVASHING, curvy in every perfect spot in every perfect way, as she was bred to be.
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I mean based on descriptions of living characters Akua is the second hottest chick after Malicia. Though Malicia seems to have an Aspect that works similar to Hierarch in that everyone finds her attractive. It even works on people like Masego who well we don’t know now but previously had no interest in Sexual Stuff. Orcs though don’t value soft curvy looks. Hakram stated before he finds Humans not attractive someone like Indrani or Captain (RIP) is probably what he views as the most attractive for a Human.
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I think it’s not an Aspect of Alaya’s, she just does that via sorcerous effects.
Not that we have hard confirmation of it not being an Aspect, but given the nature of her past trauma, I’d say it’s unlikely.
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It’s Name shenanigans, like Cat and Black’s shadow manipulation. Not an Aspect and not sorcery.
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The canon explanation from earlier chapters, IIRC, is that neither is the case. She was that beautiful before she even had a Name or anyone to work sorcery on her, which is why Dread Emperor Shitlord McGee abducted her from the tavern she was working in for her father for his harem. Her Name has kept her young b/c that’s basically the one thing that villains get that heroes don’t, and I think it was also mentioned that she has some subtle sorcerous effects in her court gowns that basically serve to foreground it in people’s attention to help her keep people (esp men ofc) off balance, but the beauty itself has been stated to be all hers.
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^^^ yeah, these effects are what I was referring to.
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Bit of both, as I understood it. She has magical enchantments on her person, but she is breathtakingly hot by default, and her name keeps and enhances that. All emperor/expresses have a “this one is in charge and is to be loved/feared/obeyed” aura, but hers emphasizes the lust/love aspect. Stack it all together and you get Malicia, always the hottest person in the room. As to her past, that helped shape it this way, she knows her looks get her attention but over the years she learned how to weaponize that until it became a literal weapon
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Hmmm. Targeted, specific countermeasures designed for the biggest known Heroes.
Killing Saint is probably doable, but containing Pilgrim probably won’t be sustainable for very long.
They’re coming up behind the enemies around Juniper, that’s a mixed benefit – it’s potentially a hammer and anvil situation, but they can’t afford to take too long winning and getting back moving, because they are being pursued, even though they’ve got a semi-decent lead.
Better than getting there first and getting trapped within Juniper’s encampment.
Kairos is Up To Something, as per usual. He really needs to get killed thoroughly, and the sooner the better.
This still be interesting.
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I am honestly not sure who kills Kairos but I bet good odds that Hanno takes out Hierarch. If anyone can get Hanno to break the I don’t judge rule its the man who runs and worships the city that got his mother killed. Still Kairos cannot go out probably until he tries to trap an Angel that Cordelia is raising.
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It was Asur that got his mother killed. Hierarch “worships” Bellerophon (I’m sure I mangled the spelling, but you get the idea).
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Fair enough I think its still a good clash. Since Hierarch believes in the Laws of Man and White Knight believes in the Mandate of Heaven.
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You didn’t. You did, however, mangle the spelling of Ashur.
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It’s not meant to counter Pilgrim; it’s meant to counter Pilgrim’s counter.
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That’s some blue MtG deck level fuckery.
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Ah blue, the deck color that says you feed off the hatred of others because negative attention is still attention.
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Ah blue, the color that says you like complex and manifold games, as opposed to running the same flavor of face mashing every time 😛
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*grabs popcorn* do continue
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Yes, we were all wondering about that upcoming clash. Using heavenly Light to counter the power of Night is a no-brainer for Pilgrim (or the White Knight, for that matter), Apparently Cat’s answer is to simply overwhelm their personal miracles with power.
You know, Catherine would have a much easier time persuading everyone else to ban summoning of angels and demons, if she didn’t keep allying herself with major independent Powers. 😉
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Power, the element of surprise, and possibly some trickery of Akua’s own devising
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Must admit I am a bit worried she has two silver bullets but at least five obstacles/people who Need to Go – the Bard, Kairos, Hierarch, Saint, and Pilgrim. Hopefully the heroes can take down a couple, and she has something secret prepared for the Bard.
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The Bard is a problem for another day, especially as she’s apparently elsewhere. Kairos is a PITA, but as demonstrated at their meeting, he’s a PITA that Cat is well-equipped to deal with. Hieirarch is unnerving but local; as far as the war goes, he’s basically taking his city off the map. I do tend to doubt that his power will affect the Dead King’s undead!
Some commenters have theorized that Hierarch is summoning an angel for Kairos to trap, but no way is an Evil Name in an Evil city getting an angel to show up.
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I think you’re underestimating the two. Kairos has *a plan*, and Hierarch is crazy.
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Yes, he is putting half the Procer in danger, by distracting everyone of the Dead King. He is also “allied” with the Hierarch, a madman who can spread his (stupid) madness around here. Both of them need to die, and the sooner, the better.
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I thought obvious that the purpose of the well was not referring to countering a specific hero but a specific event.
Dawn is the obvious counter to the drow, obviously the Gods Above will arrange a way for an unexpected dawn, so create a well that can hide the sun.
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If the Dawn is the miracle, the direct opposition would be to make it dusk. But the way to let the miracle happen and not be affected by it: Create an eclipse. The moon can blot out the sun without ever fighting it.
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Oh come now Cat and Hakram like you could stop Indrani from chasing Masego anyway.
I am not sure why Cat is worried about Hakram having issues with Akua, she didn’t massacre any Orcs and he is sociopath driven by pragmatism and getting the Liesse Accords done. Masego respects Akua spellcasting and doesn’t care about the little people anyway so really Viv is the only likely to be mad about Akua.
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So many things here that are slightly off from how I’m seeing them, it’s actually kinda interesting.
– I don’t think Indrani would have left ywithout Cat okaying the idea. She cares about Masego, but she cares about the rest of the Woe too, and she trusts Cat to have a better grasp on the strategic situation, including the storyweaving situation, and what is and isn’t a good idea. I mean obviously this was one, but if Cat had tried to stop Indrani from doing it it would have been for a damn good reason and Indrani knows that. Communication and trust!
– Hakram functioned as Cat’s conscience / reminder of her principles / moral check TWO CHAPTERS AGO. Don’t tell me you already forgot “weren’t we better than this, when we started?” :3 I mean I’m not making judgements about Hakram being or not being a sociopath, but he’s got a strong grasp on ethics either way, and he DOES challenge Cat’s judgements on them.
– Masego doesn’t ‘not care about the little people’. He cares about people in general abstract when he thinks about it, but has very little ability to put it into practice is the thing. And he usually doesn’t think about it. He’s oblivious, not amoral. (One of his first converstional exchanges with Cat, in the chapter where he was introduced, was actually an ethics debate, god fucking bless).
More importantly, the ‘little’ modifier there is insultingly misleading. Masego doesn’t discriminate by class, he discriminates by personal relationships and absolutely nothing else. I guarantee you he doesn’t consider Praesi nobles to possess more moral relevance than Callowan peasants. If anything, Callowan peasants are people Catherine cares about, and therefore matter slightly more than Praesi nobles, who as far as he’s aware nobody he cares about does.
Your conclusion that he doesn’t give a fuck about Cat’s treatment of Akua is absolutely correct (I mean it’s canon, we’ve seen this dynamic on the way to Keter already), but the reasons for that are different than you’ve listed :3
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I mean Indrani was going after Masego eventually so Cat I suppose could have convinced Indrani to wait but in a critical battle would Indrani be at her best while Worrying about Masego that is also a consideration. Yes Indrani trust Cat when it comes to story manipulation and setting the mission for the Woe but when it comes to Masego…I think Cat learned her lesson when she wanted to stop Masego from going to his Fathers.
Hakram does what is best for Cat. So if he needs to act as her conscious then that is what he will do. However, there is nothing to show Hakram cares about the average dead Callowan. He is also pragmatic so he is fine with Akua as long as she is useful and not treasonous but her killing 100,000 doesn’t really factor into his calculations. If anything as he noted her being dangerous is something he likes about Akua, doesn’t make up for her soft human features. But Orcs respect the ability to Kill.
Masego is similar. Masego doesn’t really care that 100,000 Callowans died at all. He killed people who are not under Cat for rather minor insults all things considered and Cat had to make a list so he wouldn’t just kill people who annoy him. I agree though that Masego doesn’t make a distinction based on Birth Class. His primary rating factor about worth is probably knowledge/ability to do Magic.
So yeah I stand by my claim that Masego, Indrani and Hakram don’t really care about a 100,000 Dead Callowans or to expand the “Little People” at all. They care about their circle of Friends and Family anyone not in that circle meh. Hakram and Masego would be fine keeping Akua around because she is useful even without the events in the Underdark. I also do not think they necessarily agree with Cat and presumably Viv that Akua needs a real punishment for all those kills if she doesn’t go traitor.
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“I mean Indrani was going after Masego eventually”
I mean so was Cat?
You can’t just postulate a highly hypothetical out of character Cat and then make assertions about Indrani’s relationship with her like they appy to her relationship with the actual Cat 😛
They both care about him a whole lot. It’s a them thing, not an Indrani thing. If anything, Catherine was his friend first.
one’s his girlfriend one’s his cousinThere’s no need for Indrani to make it her own personal crusade when in the first chapter of this book she ended up being the one comforting Cat about the uncertainity there.
>Hakram does what is best for Cat. So if he needs to act as her conscious then that is what he will do. However, there is nothing to show Hakram cares about the average dead Callowan.
He certainly cares about the average racism’d orc, if his conversation with Vivienne in Zwischenzug II was any indication. And I take that explanation to be genuine.
Anyway, you asked why Catherine would think Hakram might grill her about Akua. This is why. Because he acts as her conscience when he thinks she needs it. Catherine expected that he might think she needs it in this case. That’s the explanation.
>I agree though that Masego doesn’t make a distinction based on Birth Class. His primary rating factor about worth is probably knowledge/ability to do Magic.
Something like that, though I don’t think it’s a moral judgement. He certainly had no problem with lethal wards killing scriers, and Praesi nobility tend to be skilled sorcerers themselves, and he’s certainly shown no compunction killing them either. It’s more like he cares only when and to the degree that he pays attention, and he’s more likely to pay attention when magic is involved. And even then he usually deliberately reserves judgement.
So no, he won’t challenge Catherine’s decisions on this. One way or another. He doesn’t care about Akua any more than he counts about said 100 000 dead; he cares about them a little bit more in fact, because Catherine cares and he cares that Catherine cares. The minimum to which he cares about Akua – in an otherwise empty world empty situation he’d prefer her alive – is less than that.
And yes, of course, since he only cares about the situation through the lens of Catherine’s judgements and doesn’t care to figure out their sources, he’ll be onboard with whatever.
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Cat is not in a position to leave now even if she wanted. Nor can they both leave. Cat has to lead the Drow and is the main offensive magic user on her side. I am not saying Cat doesn’t care about Masego but she hardly in a position to do anything right now. As for eventually, I meant maybe Cat could convince Indrani to wait until after this upcoming battle. But I don’t think Cat making a logical argument would necessarily sway Indrani.
Hakram says he cares about an Orc in the Army that doesn’t mean he cares about all Orcs or cares about the average Human Callowan. I didn’t ask why Hakram would grill Cat. And I don’t necessarily take everything anyone says in this story at face value.
Again I am talking when he killed the two twins for no reason besides them saying some bad things about Cat. He also mentions that Cat made him a check list to not kill people who annoy him. Hakram is debatable I suppose but I think its Quite Clear that Indrani and Masego don’t give a crap about anyone outside the circle of friends and family.
As for Akua my point is more the fact that she killed 100,000 Callowans is not going to factor much in Masego or Hakram view on weather she is worth keeping around.
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No, Cat is not in a position to leave, what does this have to do with anything?
I am saying Catherine would not have needed to make a logical argument to convince Indrani to not go off on a hare-brained quest of a single person catching an invisible flying fortress. In fact, judging from what Cat told Hakram, it might have been Cat’s idea in the first place: Indrani does not think in story terms as much, and it might simply not have occured to her that A can plausibly lead to B here.
>Hakram says he cares about an Orc in the Army that doesn’t mean he cares about all Orcs or cares about the average Human Callowan.
It also doesn’t mean that he doesn’t?
>I didn’t ask why Hakram would grill Cat.
>I am not sure why Cat is worried about Hakram having issues with Akua
>And I don’t necessarily take everything anyone says in this story at face value.
I don’t take everything anyone says at face value either. That doesn’t mean everything is absolute chaos and nothing is real. Hakram joined Catherine in the first place becuase she tugged his emotion of caring about other people and then also his emotion of social justice. Remember that?
>Again I am talking when he killed the two twins for no reason besides them saying some bad things about Cat. He also mentions that Cat made him a check list to not kill people who annoy him.
Yeah. He also commented that it’s better when the world works that way, and if it doesn’t – well, you just have to make it.
He also informed Catherine that he calls everyone ignorant because if he doesn’t, how will they know that they are and know to get better?
And don’t forget that Catherine had to institute a rule of “friends don’t vivisect friends” with Masego. And that he took a killswitch from her without questioning her motivations and later made fun of her for trying to keep it secret. He simply does not think about ethics the way human people normally do. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t have any.
>Hakram is debatable I suppose but I think its Quite Clear that Indrani and Masego don’t give a crap about anyone outside the circle of friends and family.
Indrani and Masego give much less of a crap about anyone outside the circle of friends and family. It’s you talking in absolutes that irks me here. They’re both extremely locally focused, though for different reasons: Indrani is essentially traumatized and emotionally stunted by a childhood that went from literal slavery to a parental figure who fails to give half a fuck about anyone outside her own precious person, while Masego was raised by an incarnation of absolute evil and a devil, surrounded by a tight-knit loving friendgroup and the scorpion pit of Praesi aristocracy outside that, and ended up a little bit confused about how humans normally relate to one another period.
>As for Akua my point is more the fact that she killed 100,000 Callowans is not going to factor much in Masego or Hakram view on weather she is worth keeping around.
True. Masego simply does not consider this his business to pass judgement on, and Hakram does not strike me as someone particularly concerned with ideas like justice, retribution and prices to pay – purely future-oriented. He’ll worry about what Akua’s presence means to Cat going forward, not about what Akua already did.
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Are you still calling Hakram a sociopath? Are you kidding? This is a guy who cut off his own hand to win someone’s confidence, and not to betray her afterwards. Heck, he’s a moral standard for others. Hakram is many things, but not a sociopath.
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I mean I would separate speculation about his mental architecture from judgement of his ethics 😛
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A sociopath can sacrifice things for personal gain and doesn’t betray everyone they meet. I am not sure what your point is. I mean at the point in the story what advantage would Hakram gain from stabbing Viv in the back. A sociopath does not have to be a cackling madman.
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Hakram went way beyond “not stabbing Viv in the back”! The thing is, if you want to use a word as anything other than a handy insult, you need to play attention to what it actually means. And what’s basic to to both the popular and formal definitions of sociopathy, is a failure to care about other people. A sociopath’s response to a teammate losing it might well be brutal, but not toward themselves.Sociopaths might help others if they feel it serves their interest, but they tend to be fairly specific about what their interests are. Hakram, in contrast, has shown goodwill and consideration consistently, including to strangers.
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If the Enemy has beaten them there, isn’t the Hammer & Anvail the most classical answer?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer_and_anvil
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Plot twist, the entire series so far has been the set up to a comedic harem anime with Archer as the protagonist.
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Indrani has commented before that Cat’s story is not hers.
THIS is her story.
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Is… is it wrong that I would totally read that…?
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Gods Bellow, yes! Please someone make a fanfic
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Always a pleasure to see Hakram on screen.
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I shed tears during Archer’s goodbye scene. Very well done EE, very well done indeed.
Great to see Cat & Hakram together again. I’m looking forward to seeing them discuss more about Hakram’s lost hand.
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If Cat isn’t bound by that oath to kill Akua, is she still bound heavily by the deal with Larat?
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Did she make a magical oath with Akua? Making a deal with a Fae is different.
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That’s a really good question. I’m going to say _probably_ not. I found the scene where that oath was made and it really could go either way IMO:
““We swear to your service, Queen of the Hunt,” the fae said. “Queen of Air and Darkness, Sovereign of Moonless Nights. We swear ‘til the day of last ruin, ‘til all debts are paid. We would ride beneath your banner, in this world and every other.”
The Queen of Callow rose to her feet, as bright and terrible as any of them, and softly laughed.
“What clever foxes you are,” she said. “Your oaths I accept, in the spirit they were given.”
Her sword hissed as it left the sheath, and she stood before the fae.
“Kneel, and rise in my service.”
The Hunt knelt, the Hunt rose, and Brandon Talbot knew he would never forget the sight of this so long as he lived.”
https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/03/07/epilogue-3/
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Not that deal. The one where she swore to place seven crowns and one before Larat in exchange for his help against the army of the Princess of High Noon.
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That one was sealed by a separate mechanism, not by Cat’s Winter nature. It should still hold.
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My opinion as well. It is also too ominous to just disappear.
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Also a fun thing about it is that if I understand correctly it’s not really… time-specific? Like. It sounds like Cat could just keep putting it off forever. I’m really confused about that part actually
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I assume there is some sort of associated imperative where she must take the crowns if able to. Which I imagine will force her hand at some point when confronted with the Princes of Procer.
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Her oath was to Vivienne as a fae which she no longer is, so she may not be bound to literally have to carry it out anymore. I would argue though her oath as one Woe to another still holds just as strong. I hope she’s not deluding herself into thinking Vivienne is going to let this go, and that Catherine just has to argue a little. Her going back on her word to kill Akua has the possibility of forcing Vivienne to change sides back to the heroes. It’s going to be that ugly with a very strong possibility of Vivienne getting a heroic name to replace her lost one. Catherine better tread very carefully here.
I have to say I’m pretty disappointed in her myself. Akua would know the easiest to fracture the Woe is to get Catherine to reneg on her promise, and guess what it seems the first seeds have taken root,
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She’s not going back on her word. What she said was basically “I am no longer magically bound to do this, but I think it’s the right thing to do anyway”. She just focused on another aspect than the promise to Vivi.
She resorted to making oaths over everything because of Winter fucking up her judgement, anyway. It’s no longer THIS important that she do what Vivi says.
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I don’t think that’s what she meant. I think she’s currently leaning away from having Akua atone by dying (or be punished by dying depending on your PoV), and more towards Akua atoning (as much as you can atone for that level of crime) but living well and helping bring peace to the continent. She’s no longer bound to ensure that Akua meets an untimely end, but that doesn’t in any way mean that Akua is just going to get away with her crimes, only that the measure of response is no longer, “and she must die in the end.”
Vivienne will not be happy, but I think that as long as Cat doesn’t overstep, she’ll reluctantly go along with it.
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That’s one possibility yeah.
I ship CatAkua too much to allow myself to believe that Catherine really is consciously leaning towards letting Akua stay alreadyLikeLiked by 1 person
“But there will be a day where the world we made no longer has place for her,” Vivienne said. “When we have faced all the horrors before us. And on that day, when she has glimpsed victory?”
Vivienne met my eyes and there was something in them that gave even Winter pause.
“Snuff her out, Catherine,” she said. “Slowly. Painfully. Excruciatingly aware of what is being taken from her.”
Vivienne will grudgingly accept using Akua to help them, but if Catherine backs off from destroying her at the end, then there is going to be trouble. Catherine better not be dumb enough to lead with “I’m no longer bound to destroy Akua”.
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I think Catherine’s may lead with ““I’m no longer bound to destroy Akua. But you have my word I will.”
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Cat plan with the well is to store power and create an Eclipse or Artificial Night to win the battle by boosting herself and the Drow. Interesting plan I suppose she is hoping no one can do what Masego can and create a Miniature Sun or has an aspect that creates Daylight. Significant gamble when facing a bunch of heroes. I wonder if Saint can cut it actually.
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Could also be to eclipse the Pilgrim’s star thing. Or a more potent version of Masego’s spell to block the Light, though I doubt it.
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It won’t work as a weapon like that, Black would have taught her better. Declaring your weapon will make you unbeatable ensures somebody either has or will get a countermeasure, possibly then and there for the young heroes. Otherwise they take big risks to destroy it just when the pivot let’s the army really to defeat evil.
But cats not dumb enough to use it that way. She is specifically using it as a counter. That means she can use it as her pivot, much lower risk there, especially at night, because shes restoring a natural advantage instead of nullifying a disadvantage.
Not to mention it’s got to be easier to thwart a named power as opposed to fighting the sun. Even if she still could viv’s trick wouldn’t work here, both for reasons mentioned above and because itd still be day even if the sign wasn’t there anymore.
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I would say time of day basically decides this if the fight is during the Day then its advantage Heroes..Cat uses Well for Eclipse, a Hero Counters it back to daylight, Heroes Win. Or its night time so advantage Cat and Drow, where some tries to use Dawn, and it gets countered.
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It could be designed as a counter to a Dawn aspect though, or something like that. Heroes pull an artificial dawn out of their butts and Cat shuts it down with more raw power than they can fight, right after they’ve blown all their narrative momentum on a big climactic moment of the sun rising.
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So, Cat and Hakram say she was still Cat. Guess that’s another time I’ve been wrong, unless there’s another twist. It goes against everything I had seen, but this seems to indicate it was misinterpretation on my part.
I like that Cat is preparing again. Having silver bullets and schemes is good. It’s the only way they’re getting out of this mess with an acceptable outcome.
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I think Sve Noc explained it. Its funny though that Hakram explanation reminds me of Order of the Stick and Durkon. I think the Joker also says it though since its a variant of his one bad day. Basically the argument is you are who you are on your worse day. So Winter Cat is Cat on her worse day with a biggest hammer and no real knowledge or wisdom to temper it. Now granted Sve Noc did make it seem that it would not be Cat if Cat was under the influence long enough but that doesn’t happen until a long time. Probably at least until Cat had lived longer then a normal human lifespan.
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Durkon was more arguing from continuity of being – that it prevents us from ever putting bad things behind us – while here we have the question of whether something that is Winter plus Cat, molded into a Cat shape, is Cat.
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Ship of Theseus. If no information is lost, the entity is the same.
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Hm. So if the crew who changed the planks tell no one about it, the ship is not the same?
Also, Cat was mostly replaced all at once, and so was Durkon. This makes them more akin to the “exchange the whole ship” scenario than the “gradual change” one.
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No, that’s not the meaning of ‘information’ here. Information here is more like the purpose of the plank. If the new plank is a nanotechnological device secretly sending brainwashing waves, you have a case for it not being the same ship, even if the crew was upfront about it. If it’s the same plank as before conceptually, it can be replaced entirely in secret and it’s still the same ship. They can all be replaced entirely in secret overnight, and it’s still the same ship, provided nothing important to its identity as a ship changed. Individual planks arent’ important to it.
What exact moment are you thinking of for Durkon?
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That is odd, because I could secretly exchange all the planks of two ships, or exchange the two ships. Both processes end in the same physical state, yet you claim they produce different outcomes.
I wasn’t thinking of a moment myself so much as arguing about the mentioned moment. It’s this page: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html
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More things about the ship are ‘information’ in this way than just its basic purpose. Basically anything that our abstract Theseus (I don’t remember the story in question) cares about with regard to his ship, like cabin layout or specific furnishings or a quirk in construction – but the identity of specific planks is hardly it. Unless one of them has a carving in it that is entirely central to the attachment Theseus has to the idea of his ship or something, in which case you should replicate the carving or simply not touch that particular plank.
And if two ships are identical to the point that you could simply switch them around and no information would be lost, and the only thing differentiating them is their physical location, then yes you can switch them around like this and the result will be the same as if you switched every plank.
If, however, they are different ships, but the amount/size of planks is them is sufficiently similar that you can switch every single one around to the other ship’s configuration – well, the configuration is the difference.
As for that… It’s rather worth noting that in the end, vampire Durkon ended up literally turning into regular Durkon when exposed to all his memories. The nature of the difference is very… uh… different, between Durkon/evil!Durkon and Cat/Winter!Cat. And still OotS seems to be making the argument that Durkon and evil!Durkon are the same entity mirrored/replicated/separated, to the degree of merging back together when the external difference is removed.
(And yes, I know that’s not a counterargument to your point. I was just confused by this comparison to begin with)
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I’d love to debate philosophy in a more appropriate setting, though I will admit I lack formal training. You have an interesting view of identity.
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Same here wrt formal training, unless you count one semester long class
and a whole lot of blogging. You can find me for example on tumblr at lilietsblog.tumblr.com :3(also on reddit as LilietB, and on discord as Liliet – Liliet The Great Nerd on pgte discord…)
And thank you, I like living with this view of it :3
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Maybe I should try that server. But I already have so many, and that one is bound to be busy…
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It’s fun!
J O I N U S
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I am trying not to spoil Order of the Stick but since you seem up on it. I meant Vampire Durkon who says basically that “He is Durkon On Durkon’s Worst Day” All the time.
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Yes, I think that is the interpretation that is fair; it doesn’t get Cat off the hook, particularly (if you think there’s anything that she should have been ON the hook for, which I personally don’t), in the same way you don’t get off the hook when you do something in anger; but at the same time, there is the room to metaphorically say “yeah, well, I was pissed, I did things I might not have in cold blood.” (Ironically, under circumstances.)
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Pretty much what I’m thinking.
Complete with the irony ❤ ❤ ❤
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Uh, me too. I was explaining his dialogue.
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Both “continuity of being” and “putting bad things behind us” are very old challenges of the human condition — indeed, they’re still in the headlines of our own world. (Some keywords: #Metoo, Alzheimer’s, parole conditions, Gov. Northam’s yearbook).
In this story, they seem to remain challenges even of metahuman conditions.
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Guide is very good 🙂
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Personally, I find the argument from continuity of being to be disingenuous, because continuity does not imply constance. Remorse exists for precisely that reason.
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Oh, and if I may: some of your keywords are specific to one culture.
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No, Catherine did have knowledge and wisdom to temper it, which is exactly Hakram’s point here. Temper =/= negate, though.
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People can act very differently when under influence.
Cat was under influence.
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The question is, however: how much influence can a person take before they’re not themselves?
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I agree with Masego here: as long as continuity moment to moment is preserved (and the ship-of-theseus moment in Liesse left Cat in exactly the same mental state, just made of different stuff), any amount. People change.
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Eh. Did it, though? And coming down from Winter certainly didn’t, so did she stop being Cat then?
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What do you mean “didn’t”?
Catherine’s being was comprised of the exactly same information as before. Nothing was lost, nothing was added. She simply started getting different information from her senses, and having different tools accessible to process it.
I’ll be honest, I’m fairly indifferent to the whole ‘but is she ESSENTIALLY the same Catherine’ philosophical question. There is no fundamental essence of Catherine-ness, there is only a sum of Catherine’s component parts, that changes always and always. The label on it that says “Catherine Foundling” is in the eye of the beholder. The map is not the territory.
As far as I’m concerned, as far as Hakram is concerned, as far as Masego is concerned, the person that exists now matches the membership test for the category “Catherine Foundling”. And the person that existed during the Winter arc did so too, if by slightly different metrics / with slightly less confidence.
What would change depending on whether Winter!Cat was “really” Cat or not?
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It is a question of fair attribution, I guess. Can attributes (and actions) of Winter!Cat be applied to Cat without distortion?
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What do you mean “applied”?
How do you “apply” attributes and actions to someone?
Here’s the thing: I’m coming at this from the perspective of actual real-world questions like “does trauma IRREPARABLY BREAK a person” and “do anti-anxiety meds Change Who You Really Are”. The answer to both being no.
You cannot accurately predict non-winter!Catherine’s actions based on knowledge of what winter!Catherine would do without adjusting for winter’s influence, much like how you can’t predict a sober person’s behavior based on what they did when they were drunk.
Can attributes and actions of 5yo you be applied to present day you without distortion?
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It is an ethics issue. Surely you are culpable for actions undertaken yesterday, even if you were drunk. But are you culpable for what winter-you did last summer?
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You’re really desperate to prove something here, aren’t you?
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I’m more having fun debating someone.
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The further away the action is, the less culpable you are for it? Like, that’s even a legal concept: crimes ‘expire’ after a while.
I would say that your responsibility for what you did while under influence depends on:
– what you actually did
– degree of influence
– how responsible you are for being under influence in the first place
like if you got drugged without your knowledge, it kicked in while you were driving, you suddenly passed out and your car hit someone, it’s Not Your Fault What The Fuck
but if you TOOK a drug that you knew would cause you to pass out later / that you didnt know what it did, and then went driving anyway, then you’re culpable AS FUCK for that
Catherine knew she was under influence, and her oaths were her way of giving the car keys to a friend XD
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I like that interpretation.
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In a world where such transformations are an option, the most important point is essentially political: Can the person’s new instar* maintain the social and political business of the old? Notice that in-universe, nobody was questioning whether the Duchess of Night was actually the same person as Squire Catherine, Queen of Callow. She maintained her friendships (and picked up some), continued to act masterfully on the political and military scenes, and so on. Even when Akua briefly took control of Cat’s Winter form, nobody outside the Woe (and a few guards, and the readers) even knew about it.
* “Instar” is a term from biology denoting a marked stage of life with distinct transformations. Butterflies have four instars: egg, larva (caterpillar), pupa (chrysalis), and imago (adult butterfly).. Cat has four so far: Foundling/Squire I, Squire II, Duchess of Moonless Nights, Priestess of Winter. I’m inclined not to count her initial Naming as an instar break (because she didn’t actually get killed), but it’s an arguable point.
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Self correcting “Priestess of Night”. Always an error, sigh.
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I mean Catherine sure as fuck got stabbed through the chest, with unspecified resolution to that physical fact.
Just saying.
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And yet we (and she) later learned that the stabbing wasn’t actually necessary, just Amadeus being a stagey jerk.
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(Also, I agree entirely. Fun brainteaser: Vivienne has never actually known alive!Catherine. She’d met her in Summerholm and Liesse, but hardly saw enough of her to really see the difference between winter!Cat and non-winter!Cat. How will this change impact their relationship going forward?)
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I have an even better question: why are people so desperate for that excuse? Catherine is a villain – a fairly well meaning one, but a villain nonetheless. Is it really so hard to accept?
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It is not. It’d be folly to deny she’s a villain after she burned all those people at Three Hills down.
If I am trying to force this interpretation, it’s because the narrative of the eldritch being fitting a person-shaped mold appeals to my sense of aesthetics.
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Oh. No offense, but I personally think it’s a terrible narrative. I prefer characters, even eldritch beings, to be accountable for their actions.
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They are, though one’s responsibility for the acts of an eldritch being shaped in one’s mold is limited.
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That’s why the narrative sucks. Everything we don’t like about a character can be explained with them being not really them. A coward’s way out, if you ask me.
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I like the narrative of a person fitting an eldritch being-shaped mold 😀
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Are people that malleable, that one can convincingly perform the eldritch for any period of time without becoming eldritch?
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Only one way to find out.
Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
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Hahaha
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I mean, Cat did become eldritch, that’s my entire point. And then bounced back, because it was something external imposed onto her, not an internal change.
That’s how I view this :3
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It was a change to her soul. How is that not internal?
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I swear I replied to this???
tl;dr: if you start taking meds that literally alter your brain chemistry, that’s an ‘internal’ change too, but it sure as fuck doesn’t change your identity
Catherine + Winter = Winter!Catherine; Winter!Catherine – Winter = Catherine
clearly the change wasn’t fundamental, just an addition
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And yet addition to and subtraction from things can clearly change their identity (consider removing all of a thing). Meds may be too gradual or subtle, but whether Winter was is another question.
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You never stop being you. Even dementia or a personality shift caused by temporal or frontal lobe damage doesn’t suddenly stop a person being themselves.
They change, but we all change. Becoming an adult doesn’t stop you being you. Hitting a midlife crisis when you realise change doesn’t stop in your 20s. All changes people file under normal, ignoring that they can be shifts that are just as profound as bipolar disorders. Those just speed the change-o-meter up a notch to “blatantly obvious”.
Somebody with an addiction? Is themselves… with an addiction. The many facets to their physiology and personality didn’t happen overnight, and addiction doesn’t negate the whole.
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The change back from winter cat did happen instantly, though.
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Head trauma happens quickly, but regardless of the outcome, the individual is still them. Your point?
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It also doesn’t usually make you do an 180 on almost everything you’ve been doing in the past several months.
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No, usually not. But it happens sometimes.
And saying Winter made Catherine go against her own actions and convictions from before acquiring the mantle is a straight up lie. No such thing has taken place. Winter limited Cat’s scope of thinking, made her oblivious to certain alternate solutions to her problems that perhaps could have been less costly in terms of moral standing and more detached emotionally, but it was nowhere near as bad as you claim it to be. Her convictions held strong, even if her perspective was skewed.
tl;dr: I find your claim disingenuous and unfair towards the character.
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Uh, no, I meant getting rid of it made her reevaluate everything she’d done in the Everdark, including the slavery and mass murder, and regret a lot of it.
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A side effect of suddenly having one’s scope of thinking expanded.
Also, I’d like to note that, as apparently nobody remembers, she only started doing those things after being convinced by Archer that more radical actions are necessary, and I don’t see our dear Indrani receiving any blame for that.
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We all know Archer is at least somewhat amoral. Don’t need to point that out.
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On the contrary. Omitting Indrani’s part in the events that took place in the Everdark allows you to put all blame on the Sovereign of the Moonless Nights, which makes the demonization of that entity (which is exactly what you’re doing, although I’m not sure whether it’s a conscious strategy or a subconscious bias) a great deal easier, which in turn makes it easier to create an impression of dissociation between the Sovereign and Catherine Foundling by exaggerating the differences.
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Am I? I don’t think I am demonizing anyone. I haven’t even really spoken of the morality of Winter Cat much. All I’ve been saying is I wasn’t sure she could be considered the same person as Cat, given wildly differing behaviors and thoughts… and Cat herself seems to disagree.
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You might need to do a little more research into frontal lobe lesions. It can be that much of a wrench. Thing is… the personality change is actually still built on what was there. It’s just that brain damage shifts the emphasis on what aspects get expressed.
Look into schizoid conditions: they throw up fascinating insights into how many views, instincts, alternate pathways, mind-sets and behaviours most of us never consciously realise we actually contain. People with a heavy dose of schiz get more of a peak at what we all have going on inside, simply because the selective blinkers/ filters most of us take for granted aren’t working to spec for them.
Yet, all those options? Are what we are, are part of us and remain so, even if we mostly don’t realise it.
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So our current working model for winter is brain damage or mental conditions?
You’re right, I’m not schooled in the workings of such things, but I will note that the law will sometimes exonerate people based on them being mentally ill (though I guess that tends to end with them in a mental hospital).
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I suspect the well is only partly to be an energy source, I think it’s meant to stop Pilgrim from ruining her with his counter-magic feedback.
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A slower chapter before a big fight, with the best use of Praesi treachery I’ve ever seen.
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All this talk of Winter & Night Oaths got me thinking; Whatever happened to Killian? I wonder if she ever went through with that ritual business and became full-blooded Fae. Also, I’m betting that Friday’s chapter will be more buildup, because when have we ever not had a cliffhanger before the weekend?
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The thing is, if she became full fae, she’d gain at least some of Cat’s former powers… but she presumably wouldn’t be a member of one of the Fae Courts, so she’d be operating on a much lower power level,
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Just posting a comment to subscribe
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“Masego had his habits, but he wasn’t exactly blind.”
His blindfold is just for show.
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